Network Rail spending on air travel

[ADRboy]

NR should be allowed to travel the whole network for free (for work purposes) surely? If it wasn't for their work the TOC's wouldn't be able to run a service.

 

[misterredmist]

Well, if they made it free/cheaper for NR staff to travel by train they could say if you want a fly - you pay for it. Quite simple really. No obligation to use the train, but I think most would.

Just think of the seats that get "freed" up for us rail travelling folk if NR staff are taking the "paraffin parrot" .....

as mentioned earlier, regardless of the fact that they are NR staff, there will be many occasions where travelling long distance by air will be

a) more cost effective
b) more time effective
c) more convenient for the traveler concerned..... especially if they live near to Luton or Stansted Airports....

 

[Tetchytyke]

Has the RMT ever flown Ryanair or Easyjet? Travelling by train by comparison is the more expensive, indulgent 'lap of luxury'.

You've misunderstood their point.

Their point is that the railway network shouldn't be so expensive that flying is the cheaper option. Yet it usually is. I've just been to Glasgow for a weekend away and even booking weeks in advance on leisure tickets Virgin's price-gouging meant taking the plane was a no-brainer. That is ridiculous.

For business travel air will usually be the cheaper option simply because it is quicker.

 

[Domh245]

You've misunderstood their point.

Their point is that the railway network shouldn't be so expensive that flying is the cheaper option. Yet it usually is. I've just been to Glasgow for a weekend away and even booking weeks in advance on leisure tickets Virgin's price-gouging meant taking the plane was a no-brainer. That is ridiculous.

For business travel air will usually be the cheaper option simply because it is quicker.

Unless Network rail start opening budget hotels and restaurants, flying will often be cheaper. As some members of staff have pointed out, the big swing factor in the plane v train argument is the need to send people up the night before if going by train and the associated costs. Even if the tickets were free, it might still be more cost effective to fly!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless Network rail start opening budget hotels and restaurants, flying will often be cheaper. As some members of staff have pointed out, the big swing factor in the plane v train argument is the need to send people up the night before if going by train and the associated costs. Even if the tickets were free, it might still be more cost effective to fly!

They could, and should, avoid that by not arranging 9am meetings for remote staff. In any case, someone who has got up at 4am to get to a 9am meeting in that way won't be at full effectiveness.

 

[Paul180]

As NR HQ is in Milton Keynes how many fast trains are there from there to all parts of the uk. When you can pop down to Luton and hop on a flight to most parts on the uk at a reasonable cost and it is quicker than getting a train down to central london to get to other parts of the uk.

By the way I am not saying it is right but sometimes you have to take the most convenient option open to yourself.

 

[68000]

I worked on a major cross industry project that interfaced with train operators operating in the SE England area and was required to be at meetings at times which were quite frankly ridiculous if I was travelling by train. Do you really expect staff to travel on NR related business in their own time?

 

[The Planner]

MK isn't the centre of the NR universe, there are a significant amount of people that work out on the routes.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

London to Glasgow and back by train in one day (sans un hotel) - and very gruelling - I used to myself as a rail manager fly Luton to Glasgow for less than the rail fare and manage a decent days work in all this. For a 2 hour meeting (say) , do you expect someone to travel out very early and back very late in around 12 hours realistically.? ...and not be done in for the next day. My flights used local trains to Luton Airport PWAY and the bus - train to / from Paisley Gilmour Street as an objective thing.

 

[Bald Rick]

You would think an organisation like Network Rail would be sensible enough to realise that 0900 meetings for staff travelling from afar are ridiculous. I don't see why so many businesses persist with them.

Have it at 1100 and you could easily get there by train from MK without any need to mess with Sleepers.

1) Pretty difficult to have an all day meeting starting at 1100.
2) Why should a dozen Scotsmen (and women) alter their schedule just because 1 bloke is coming up from London?
3) I don't live or work in MK (and never will)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They could, and should, avoid that by not arranging 9am meetings for remote staff. In any case, someone who has got up at 4am to get to a 9am meeting in that way won't be at full effectiveness.

4) on the contrary, when getting up at 0400, I'm at the peak of mid-season form by 0900!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is possible if you caught the Cal Sleeper.

5) I'd rather not have a night away from my young family if I don't need to.

6) some people find the sleeper a very difficult experience which they would rather avoid, For example some people (self included) don't even fit in the bl**dy beds!

 

[Bletchleyite]

1) Pretty difficult to have an all day meeting starting at 1100.

If an all-day meeting is genuinely needed, travelling the day before and staying in a hotel makes more sense (or using the Sleeper).

2) Why should a dozen Scotsmen (and women) alter their schedule just because 1 bloke is coming up from London?

Simple consideration for those who need to travel, regardless of their origin?

4) on the contrary, when getting up at 0400, I'm at the peak of mid-season form by 0900!

You're lucky, then. I don't adjust sleep pattern easily, so while I've done 0400 starts to fly places (I spent 2.5 years doing it weekly on a Monday!) I am never at full effectiveness on that day. I used to do easy, mundane work on a Monday, and would never be suitably awake to make decisions or discuss things in a meeting.

 

[Bald Rick]

If an all-day meeting is genuinely needed, travelling the day before and staying in a hotel makes more sense (or using the Sleeper).

It didn't make sense. See points 5 & 6.

Also flying is much, much cheaper than train + hotel, thus saving the taxpayer cash.

 

[RichmondCommu]

1)
5) I'd rather not have a night away from my young family if I don't need to.

Well exactly. I used to have to do that quite a lot years a go when my children were young and it used to break my heart

 

[Bletchleyite]

It didn't make sense. See points 5 & 6.

Yes, family may make you choose differently.

Also flying is much, much cheaper than train + hotel, thus saving the taxpayer cash.

A typical accountant's view. I would rather pay more and have an employee who had had a proper night's sleep than one who's half asleep and stressed and save 100 quid. Though that does depend rather on the individual.

 

[Bald Rick]

A typical accountant's view. I would rather pay more and have an employee who had had a proper night's sleep than one who's half asleep and stressed and save 100 quid. Though that does depend rather on the individual.

I'm not an accountant. I'm a railwayman who has been taught to manage a budget. And I always sleep better in my own bed, but as you say, that is a matter for the individual.

 

[ASharpe]

For the past few years I've been travelling between Guildford and north east England regularly for work purposes. Only once did I make the mistake of doing it by train as a day trip.

When I travel north I'll always try my best to fit it in with me being in Yorkshire on a weekend anyway, and if I can't i'll often use up annual leave to stay in position. When my colleagues travel south to see me it's either a flight or first class train travel to suit them.

Now, I won't travel unless I've got my favourite hotel and I'll make sure at least one leg is done during my normal 9-5.

It's not just a case of getting what's the most cost effective, its more important that the person doing the travelling is going to be productive when they get there and not resentful that they are stuck in a hotel on an industrial estate after spending their evening travelling hundreds of miles along the rails.

 

[mrmatt]

Those saying that NR staff should get free travel from the TOCs surely they are effectively funding this travel through track access charges (I know these are subsidised but you get the point)? All just cyclic money realy

 

[telstarbox]

Flybe have done a press advert today based on this. https://twitter.com/JohnPaulMercer/status/594029099477299200

 

[92002]

Those saying that NR staff should get free travel from the TOCs surely they are effectively funding this travel through track access charges (I know these are subsidised but you get the point)? All just cyclic money realy

Perhaps NR should embrace modern technology and have electronic conference meetings, by telephone. It's been around for just a while and most of their offices are equipped for the service. Nobody then would need to travel or run up expenses needlessly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps NR should embrace modern technology and have electronic conference meetings, by telephone. It's been around for just a while and most of their offices are equipped for the service. Nobody then would need to travel or run up expenses needlessly.

Every office in the world is equipped for that these days, and it's how I do almost all of mine being as I work remotely for a Swiss team but I'm based in the UK. You either dial into a conference bridge, or you use something like Lync or Skype to do it from your PC.

It doesn't work for *every* meeting, but it is workable for most.

 

[edwin_m]

Flybe have done a press advert today based on this. https://twitter.com/JohnPaulMercer/status/594029099477299200

If they get that much custom from Network Rail, then annoying one of your main clients might not be good for business. I'm probably going to need to be in Paris on a Monday soon too early for the Eurostar, and though not a NR employee this will probably influence my choice of EasyJet from Luton vs Flybe from Birmingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they get that much custom from Network Rail, then annoying one of your main clients might not be good for business. I'm probably going to need to be in Paris on a Monday soon too early for the Eurostar, and though not a NR employee this will probably influence my choice of EasyJet from Luton vs Flybe from Birmingham.

I'd choose easyJet whatever. The other lot aren't called FlyMaybe for nothing. I wouldn't decide based on a slightly childish but amusing advert.

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps NR should embrace modern technology and have electronic conference meetings, by telephone. It's been around for just a while and most of their offices are equipped for the service. Nobody then would need to travel or run up expenses needlessly.

Anyone with a phone can do this, and there are also web-conferencing tools that allow anyone with a browser to see the content of a presentation screen and a webcam although the latter is a bit pointless. They are good for routine meetings but not for the type of meeting where you are getting to know people, and really not for meetings that are reviewing drawings and plans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone with a phone can use this sytem, and there are also web-conferencing tools that allow anyone with a browser to see the content of a presentation screen. They are good for routine meetings but not for the type of meeting where you are getting to know people

I would agree with that, but...

and really not for meetings that are reviewing drawings and plans.

Assuming drawings/plans exist in electronic form, they are excellent for that as you can use the screen sharing facility. It's exactly how we mostly do that kind of thing.

 

[yorksrob]

I find tele-conferencing a bit of a strain to be honest. I think it's the lack of eye contact.

 

[Hadders]

Perhaps NR should embrace modern technology and have electronic conference meetings, by telephone. It's been around for just a while and most of their offices are equipped for the service. Nobody then would need to travel or run up expenses needlessly.

Sometimes there's just no substitute for meeting face to face. Getting to look someone in the eye, their body language etc. can't really be seen by conference call.

 

[68000]

NR have phone conferencing, Webex and video conferencing facilities. I have used the phone & video conferencing extensively in NR. There are times when meeting face to face is appropriate. The focus should be on the whole travel spent and not just the narrow spend on flight costs as if that is some kind of luxury NR avail off. Anyone who has flown more than 3-4 times a year, will know it is not luxury.

 

[edwin_m]

Assuming drawings/plans exist in electronic form, they are excellent for that as you can use the screen sharing facility. It's exactly how we mostly do that kind of thing.

Not my experience at all. It's OK to get everyone looking at the part of the plan the presenter wants them to look at, but to undertake a more open review I find it better to be able to look freely at the plans and draw people's attention to particular issues without having interminable "up a bit - left a bit", compounded by the time lag before everyone's screens update.

 

[AndrewP]

Having read this thread its pretty easy to see who does a lot of business travel and who doesn't.

I do a lot of business miles and the choice of travel is based on what is easiest and least hassle and all sensible businesses support this.

When I lived in London and needed to be in Scotland I would fly as the train took so long. It also often gave me another night in my own bed which is always a good thing.

I feel that anything over 3 hours makes it impractical for a day trip and will use whatever makes most sense for that trip (train, air, car or any combination including public transport (park and rides are often a godsend).

 

[The Planner]

Agreed, on a busy signalling plan you would be forever on the call, printed out on a plotter and in front of people makes life much easier.