Network Railcard - Midnight

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soup6

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I know that a Network Railcard is not valid before 10am but given that the "railway day" starts at (I think) 04:30, I had assumed it was valid for post-midnight departures. However, on checking on the Southeastern website, there seems to be no railcard-discounted fare on the 00:12 HS1 departure to Ashford. A railcard-discounted fare is available in the 23:37 departure but this also involves travel "before 10am" as the service does not arrive into Ashford until 00:14. Is there an anomaly here?
 
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causton

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What if you chose the day before and chose 23:30, then scrolled down/pressed Next to move to the 00:12?

Your thinking is correct, but you would need a ticket dated the day before, as the railway day actually runs (as far as websites and ticket machines are concerned) Day 1 00:00 - Day 2 04:30. So with this ticket you would be using the last 00:00-04:30 period which would be allowed, but if you turned up at St Pancras at 00:01 you would end up buying a full price single for the next day!
 

furlong

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It's a grey area and relies on 'custom and practice' rather than stated terms and conditions, unfortunately. It's been like this for years and years and the railway just won't do anything about it.
 

Paul Kelly

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I think we had the discussion before as to whether you could turn up at a station (which had an open ticket office at that time of the morning) and ask for a ticket dated the day before to get around this sort of problem. As I remember the consensus was that the booking clerk would not be able to issue a ticket dated the previous day once midnight has passed. So the solution is, you need to buy the ticket, dated for the previous day, in advance of your journey.
 

bb21

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No TIS would be able to backdate a ticket AFAIK.

The restriction should have just been defined as between 0430 and 1000, but I suspect that the number of passengers involved is small, and the cost of amending the restrictions is fairly hefty.
 

soup6

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In order to try to verify what logic was being used, I tried to book a Kentish Town - Ashford ticket on the SouthEastern website. The 23:01 from Kentish Town allows a Network Railcard discount to be applied but the 23:50 does not. Both journeys begin before midnight and end after. It is difficult to see what logic is being applied here. If I try booking for a friday night/saturday morning, a Network Railcard discount is allowed on both so it is definitely the "before 10am" rule that is being (mis)applied.
 

Paul Kelly

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In order to try to verify what logic was being used, I tried to book a Kentish Town - Ashford ticket on the SouthEastern website. The 23:01 from Kentish Town allows a Network Railcard discount to be applied but the 23:50 does not. Both journeys begin before midnight and end after. It is difficult to see what logic is being applied here. If I try booking for a friday night/saturday morning, a Network Railcard discount is allowed on both so it is definitely the "before 10am" rule that is being (mis)applied.
No need to guess; you can see the full time restrictions being applied by booking engines on BRfares.com: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KTN&dest=AFK&rlc=NEW&ldn=1&tkt=CDS (scroll down to "Unpublished Restrictions"). The time restrictions are applied by booking engines to everywhere you board and alight a train, not just where the overall journey starts. You are probably falling foul of this one:
Not valid to depart any location 0001–0959 on any TOC
 

furlong

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No TIS would be able to backdate a ticket AFAIK.
I have purchased tickets from booking offices after midnight with the discount without comment, and the tickets I was handed were, as expected, dated the previous day.
 

Bletchleyite

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I know that a Network Railcard is not valid before 10am but given that the "railway day" starts at (I think) 04:30, I had assumed it was valid for post-midnight departures. However, on checking on the Southeastern website, there seems to be no railcard-discounted fare on the 00:12 HS1 departure to Ashford. A railcard-discounted fare is available in the 23:37 departure but this also involves travel "before 10am" as the service does not arrive into Ashford until 00:14. Is there an anomaly here?
As there are no reservations on those trains, just buy a ticket for the day before. It will be accepted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not valid to depart any location 0001–0959 on any TOC
So technically not valid on any after-midnight train? Bizarre. I can't see any member of staff arguing with a train that clearly belongs to the day before.
 

bb21

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I have purchased tickets from booking offices after midnight with the discount without comment, and the tickets I was handed were, as expected, dated the previous day.
Where was that from?
 

furlong

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Where was that from?
Most recently, Paddington - yes, let's give them some praise for a change on this forum!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You are probably falling foul of this one:
Not valid to depart any location 0001–0959 on any TOC
The problem here is that those restrictions do not distinguish between 0001 on the date of the ticket and 0001 on a ticket dated the previous day - if they treated that as 2401, it could be made to work in the way people expect.
 
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bb21

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Most recently, Paddington - yes, let's give them some praise for a change on this forum!
Interesting. That is the first time I have heard of a backdated ticket. By "recently", do you mean after they changed to STAR?

Paddington ticket office have always been pretty helpful and competent ime.
 

soup6

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The pragmatic question is whether a Network Railcard discounted ticket, dated from the day before, will operate the barriers on the SouthEastern platforms at St Pancras after midnight? No-one would want to get into a validity argument for the 00:12 to Ashford as it is the last train of the day so missing it due to a ticket validity dispute would be more than unfortunate.
 

JonathanH

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Broadly on this topic, what happens if you buy a ticket from Transport for London after midnight? Presumably that is dated for the day before because their day runs 0430-'2829' so to speak.

I was once told by barrier staff that an NR travelcard which I had purchased at 0001 was not valid on the underground until start of service (ie after 0430). I was however allowed to travel.
 

bb21

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IIRC London Underground machines print the previous day's date if purchased shortly after midnight, whereas NR machines print the following day's date.
 

Deerfold

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Broadly on this topic, what happens if you buy a ticket from Transport for London after midnight? Presumably that is dated for the day before because their day runs 0430-'2829' so to speak.
This only applies for capping. A day travelcard is valid from 0001 to 0429 the following day, a season on Oyster from 0001 on the first day to 0429 on the day after the expiry date.

I was once told by barrier staff that an NR travelcard which I had purchased at 0001 was not valid on the underground until start of service (ie after 0430). I was however allowed to travel.
They were wrong.
 

Mojo

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Broadly on this topic, what happens if you buy a ticket from Transport for London after midnight? Presumably that is dated for the day before because their day runs 0430-'2829' so to speak.
If you buy a ticket from a London Underground Passenger Operated Machine between Midnight and close of traffic it will be printed with the de facto date and a time since Midnight of that date. For example, at the time of making this post it's 20.27 Hrs on April 10th. If I buy a ticket in 5 hours time it will be printed with a date of April 10th and a time of 25.27.

TfL Rail and Overground are National Rail Tocs so will operate under the National Rail standard. Not sure about DLR (but I would expect it works the same way as LU given the same printing style) or TfL (which don't open late).
 

Bletchleyite

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The pragmatic question is whether a Network Railcard discounted ticket, dated from the day before, will operate the barriers on the SouthEastern platforms at St Pancras after midnight? No-one would want to get into a validity argument for the 00:12 to Ashford as it is the last train of the day so missing it due to a ticket validity dispute would be more than unfortunate.
Are the barriers actually closed at that time of night? They certainly aren't at Euston for the late-night services - the station is near enough unstaffed by then apart from non-revenue-trained security guards.
 

maniacmartin

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Broadly on this topic, what happens if you buy a ticket from Transport for London after midnight? Presumably that is dated for the day before because their day runs 0430-'2829' so to speak.

I was once told by barrier staff that an NR travelcard which I had purchased at 0001 was not valid on the underground until start of service (ie after 0430). I was however allowed to travel.
See this thread I made on the subject back in 2013
 
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furlong

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I was once told by barrier staff that an NR travelcard which I had purchased at 0001 was not valid on the underground until start of service (ie after 0430). I was however allowed to travel.
Staff should let you through the manual gate in these circumstances: TfL has said it is not worth spending money fixing the barriers because because of the tiny number of people affected.
 

BestWestern

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IIRC London Underground machines print the previous day's date if purchased shortly after midnight, whereas NR machines print the following day's date.
Hopefully the current day; the following day's date would be highly confusing! :D
 
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