Network Rule applies to XC?

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fandroid

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I normally use the GWR website for ticket purchase for journeys from Basingstoke to/from cities in the North of England. My itineraries might seem bizarre to some but here goes:

I buy a via London Off-Peak or Super-OffPeak return and use the outward leg to get to Hayes and Harlington (for Heathrow) via Reading, often needing to start quite early (within Peak times). I get to Manchester (say) by air the following day and then use the return part of the same ticket to get home, the last leg being from Waterloo.

For early morning trips out, the website shows the 08.05 GWR departure from Basingstoke but specifically blocks out the 08.28 and 08.47 XC departures (for OffPeak returns). XC opts in to the Network Railcard, but GWR seem to think that the Network Rule allowing me to use any train for the 'to London' leg does not apply to XC.

Before I have a go at GWR's web people, can the experts here confirm that I am right and GWR are wrong?
 
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LexyBoy

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What is the ticket restriction?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The quick answer is that the "Network Area Rule" is independent of TOC - using an XC train is fine as long as it's as part of a permitted route to London for the ticket being used.

Making a complaint - if one is warranted - may be tricky as there is nothing public to base the "rule" on, and as such it is being slowly eroded.

As to why GWR isn't showing it, it could be incorrectly applying the restriction (if for example there is a "not departing Reading before xxxx" - although in this case I'd expect the Reading-London train to be blocked too) or even applying a 2V restriction somehow. Does it show the journeys but only with a different ticket? If they are just not shown then it could be that the XC trains give a longer total journey time.
 

Bletchleyite

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So, hang on, what are you doing?

Basingstoke-Hayes-Heathrow, then Manchester-London-Basingstoke?

On what ticket, Basingstoke-Manchester via London Off peak return?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you are using this ticket:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BSK&dest=0438&rte=200&ldn=1&tkt=SVR

it looks valid to me *provided* via Reading then London is a permitted route (haven't got time to check). However if you read down to the implementation on the journey planners, it appears to be totally wrong.

Specifically, this:

Not valid to depart any location 0430–0929 on CrossCountry

Oops. But that does mean all Journey Planners will be wrong.
 
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LexyBoy

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Via Reading is a permitted route from Basingstoke.

What I can't understand from the implementation (or human-readable form FTM) is why it's only XC being barred.
 

Bletchleyite

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Via Reading is a permitted route from Basingstoke.

What I can't understand from the implementation (or human-readable form FTM) is why it's only XC being barred.

Lazy coding, I suspect. It's not the only case where the implementation bears no resemblance to what the text actually says.

It also appears that the way the implementation works you can't say "not valid from X towards Y", which is what is needed here (basically because for journeys via Brum the standard XC 9:30 restrictions apply).
 
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Tetchytyke

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What I can't understand from the implementation (or human-readable form FTM) is why it's only XC being barred.

The restriction says this:

For journeys to/via Birmingham on Cross Country see restriction code 2V.

2V is the restriction that sets the 0930 restriction on Cross Country.

I'd say that the journey planner is assuming that, because the XC train goes via Birmingham, that the ticket is barred on that service.
 

LexyBoy

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Oh, hang on - I see the part Neil was referring to. The electronic version of 9I includes 2V - no departure 0429-0929 on XC.

(I still don't get why it allows a departure from Reading at a barred time but never mind...)
 

Tetchytyke

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Oh, hang on - I see the part Neil was referring to. The electronic version of 9I includes 2V - no departure 0429-0929 on XC.

(I still don't get why it allows a departure from Reading at a barred time but never mind...)

Reading-Hayes isn't on XC, so isn't via Birmingham, so 2V doesn't come into play.

It's simply because the XC train goes via Birmingham that the journey planners incorrectly* apply 2V.

*Sort of. The VIA LONDON ticket should, if I've understood these things correctly, be valid via Birmingham as it is more expensive than the NOT VIA LONDON ticket and there isn't an ANY PERMITTED ticket. So if you get off at Reading the ticket is valid but if you don't and you stay on the train to Birmingham it isn't. Journey planners can't get into this level of nuance, so they lock off the XC trains.
 
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LexyBoy

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Reading-Hayes isn't on XC, so isn't via Birmingham, so 2V doesn't come into play.

I was referring to the fact trains departing Reading (by any TOC) before 0835 are barred; however looking at the OP I think this may not be relevant as the 0805 would involve a departure from Reading after this time.

Looking at NRE, the restriction is also incorrectly applied; for example a 1704 departure from BSK is not allowed despite leaving EUS at a permitted time, because the departure from RDG is during a barred time.

It's simply because the XC train goes via Birmingham that the journey planners incorrectly* apply 2V.

The electronic version of restriction 9I bars all XC trains before 0930 - I don't think the journey planner is deciding which restriction to apply; whoever coded it bodged it in instead.
 

swt_passenger

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Looking at NRE, the restriction is also incorrectly applied; for example a 1704 departure from BSK is not allowed despite leaving EUS at a permitted time, because the departure from RDG is during a barred time.
Isn't that also fallout from NRES incorrectly applying an east bound afternoon peak restriction towards Paddington that really only applies to westbound services out of Paddington. IIRC this has come up in previous discussions as a long standing defect.
 

kieron

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Making a complaint - if one is warranted - may be tricky as there is nothing public to base the "rule" on, and as such it is being slowly eroded.
The link to brfares.com Neil Williams gave contains a section buried in the notes about the "network area". This section is identical to one included in the Avantix Fares Application available on data.atoc.org. While Avantix is not particularly easy to look up things with, it is an official source.

A complaint would certainly be justified, as this doesn't appear to be deliberate, and may be fairly easy to fix for the benefit of other travellers.
 

mattdickinson

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Lazy coding, I suspect. It's not the only case where the implementation bears no resemblance to what the text actually says.

It also appears that the way the implementation works you can't say "not valid from X towards Y", which is what is needed here (basically because for journeys via Brum the standard XC 9:30 restrictions apply).

It is possible to implement on a "per train basis".

For example the validity for 9I includes

Not valid .....

GW6115
1745 LONDON PADDINGTON to SWANSEA
From 24 October 2016 until 9 December 2016
Mo Tu We Th Fr (FIRST GREAT WESTERN)
except for
boarding at READING
alighting at CARMARTHEN
alighting at LLANELLI
alighting at PEMBREY AND BURRY PORT
 

LexyBoy

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It is possible to implement on a "per train basis".

But is it possible to have a restriction based on the route taken, as required here?

As it stands, for restriction 9I:

1. For a journey: Basingstoke-Reading-London-North, any train should be permitted for Basingstoke-Reading. The current implementation wrongly bars XC services before 0930.
2. For a journey: Basingstoke-Reading-Birmingham-North, no trains should be permitted before 0930. The current implementation wrongly allows departure from Basingstoke before 0930 on GWR services.

(As an aside, I wish they would do this with all GWR evening peak trains - there are occasions where stoppers from Paddington, or fasts from Reading to London, are shown as barred when totally valid).
 
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Paul Kelly

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But is it possible to have a restriction based on the route taken, as required here?
Well you could probably simply list all CrossCountry trains that are barred, but add an exception for alighting at Reading.
 
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