New 350's to the rescue...don't think so!!

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ole man

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I've just been reading Modern Railway magazine and spotted in the editor's note that the new LM and TPE 350's that will replace the 185's will only have 53 more seats than the current 185's.
Who order's train's in this backward country?.
Overcrowding is common place on most services so the government and Network Rail keep telling us, so why order new trains that are just not big enough, what a short sighted waste of what is taxpayers money.
Using Pendolino's as the editor says must surely be a better idea, one that would make overcrowding on the Man-Scotland a thing of the past.
Why do we the paying passenger have to put with such a pathetic government.:(
 
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aformeruser

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If TPE retain 2tph between Manchester and Preston using 185s as well as using the 350s via Wigan then the 350s will provide a boost, even more so if the Manchester-Scotland frequency is increased. TPE could revert back to their 2007 timetables and diagrams once the Scottish services go over to 350s which would mean less 2 car 170 operation and a couple of extra 6 car formations on North TPE.

However, I do agree 53 more seats aren't enough as a direct replacement even if it's more than at present.
 

All Line Rover

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Ah, but 350's can be coupled and passengers can move between the two trains (unlike 185's), therefore having much more space than a 185. I know 185's can be "coupled," but one half of the train is often much quieter than the other half.
 

aformeruser

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Ah, but 350's can be coupled and passengers can move between the two trains (unlike 185's), therefore having much more space than a 185. I know 185's can be "coupled," but one half of the train is often much quieter than the other half.
10 x 350s won't really provide enough for 8 car operation on Manchester-Scotland.
 

Chris125

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They are a stopgap measure anyway, they'll end up at LM in due course replaced probably by a 6-car EMU of some kind.

Chris
 

HSTEd

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Assuming enough are actually purchased for "doubling" to become normal practice, especailly once Northern TPE electrification gives them somewhere else to send them.

Pendolinos are probably overkill but that would probably take away any chance of significant overcrowding any time soon.
 

aformeruser

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They are a stopgap measure anyway, they'll end up at LM in due course replaced probably by a 6-car EMU of some kind.
I doubt it'll be more than 5 car that replaces them if the Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland portion working idea goes ahead. OK that'll be 8 or 10 car north of Preston but only 4 or 5 car on Manchester to Preston.
 

tbtc

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Take away the "Bolton" traffic (e.g. stops between Manchester and Preston) and you'll free up a lot of spaces. These services aren't generally packed north of Preston, with the exception of Scottish holiday traffic.

Remember, BR managed with 158s...
 

HSTEd

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350/1: 264 standard
9 390: 294 standard


...
one would think that a new order for Pendolinos would allow them to specifiy reduced first class accomodation, just as HSTs for the Cross Country route apparently arrived with only one first class coach.

Wasnt there a report saying that TPE would need 8 coach trains on thier routes rather soon?
 

ainsworth74

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350/1: 264 standard
9 390: 294 standard
Though surely any 390s on these services would have to be new build so you wouldn't specify the same ratio of first to standard seating as exists currently. You would probably go for a shorter train to start with say 8 car and have a 2/6 formation of first and standard class.

Edit: If you used that formation (8-car) and did it sensibly I come up with 384/55 (though that assumes a massive kitchen in the first class end which you probably wouldn't have so there would be room for some more first class seats).
 
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ole man

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A 350/1 has 264 seats, is that a four car set?
Like the magazine say's replacing 3x23m sets with 4x 20m sets smack's of 'more of the same'
 

IanXC

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They are a stopgap measure anyway, they'll end up at LM in due course replaced probably by a 6-car EMU of some kind.

Chris
I agree. Well 5 or 6 car depending on the portion working and platform lengths north of the joioing point (Preston?) - could 12 car be accomodated?

I recon the 10x 350s for TPE will end up replacing LMs 7x 321s which would then join the 321\9s and 322s at Northern (east side) to operate local services following North TPE electrification eg Hull-York.



 
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aformeruser

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These services aren't generally packed north of Preston, with the exception of Scottish holiday traffic.
They must have a long holiday season in Scotland then. In the last two weeks I've seen off-peak southbound Glasgow and Edinburgh services arriving at Preston overcrowded and northbound Glasgow and Edinburgh services leaving Preston overcrowded. I imagine they are a bit quieter north of Lancaster though.

I recon the 10x 350s for TPE will end up replacing LMs 7x 321s which would then join the 321\9s and 322s at Northern (west side) to operate local services following North TPE electrification eg Hull-York.
You mean East side!

If North TPE electrification goes ahead I expect to see a big order of 380s or equivalent for North TPE and Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland.

I wonder if a Liverpool-Scotland service could finish up reducing passenger numbers on Manchester-Scotland simply because some people choose Manchester over Liverpool for the reason of a direct train.
 
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IanXC

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You mean East side!

If North TPE electrification goes ahead I expect to see a big order of 380s or equivalent for North TPE and Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland.

I wonder if a Liverpool-Scotland service could finish up reducing passenger numbers on Manchester-Scotland simply because some people choose Manchester over Liverpool for the reason of a direct train.
*Face palm* of course I mean East side.

Thats a good point about Liverpool-Scotland passengers going via Manchester, it would be interesting to hear from people who do or who work the route.
 

aformeruser

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Thats a good point about Liverpool-Scotland passengers going via Manchester, it would be interesting to hear from people who do or who work the route.
I was actually thinking more along the lines of someone from somewhere like Carlisle thinking of going on a day trip by train. They look at the train timetables and find Manchester is easier to get to than Liverpool so pick Manchester. Likewise a potential student from Cumbria sees Manchester universities as easier to get to by rail than Liverpool universities.
 

tbtc

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They must have a long holiday season in Scotland then. In the last two weeks I've seen off-peak southbound Glasgow and Edinburgh services arriving at Preston overcrowded and northbound Glasgow and Edinburgh services leaving Preston overcrowded. I imagine they are a bit quieter north of Lancaster though
I've used them a reasonable amount over the years to/from Glasgow (before the XC service from Sheffield was extended to Glasgow every couple of hours) and never had any bother north of Lancaster (outside holiday/ weekend flows to/from Scotland).

Take the "local" Lancashire traffic out of the equation (due to the diversion via Wigan) and a four coach 350 would be fine capacity wise.
 

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But longer term something like a 380 would be nicer, 23m carriages do make a difference...

TPE NW (If they continue to call at Salford Crescent and in the long term will not get longer platforms, same for Oxford Road)

The new EMUs for NT around Manc and Leeds, 23m carrages would be helpful for the restrictive platforms at Oxford Road...

Ie. if the're never going to be lengthened at Oxford Road then TPE N and NW could do very nicely with 6 car 380 style vehicles...
 

tbtc

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longer term something like a 380 would be nicer, 23m carriages do make a difference...
True, but the 350s are supposedly only a short(ish) term thing, going to LM later on (presumably to replace 321s).

I'm just surprised at the complaining about only getting slightly bigger EMUs (for the first few years). when you consider that the loadings north of Preston are generally fine with 185s anyway.

Can't please everyone.
 

Nym

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I'm not complaining, so long as the LDPE passengers to Scotland are kept seperate and the amount of stock running through Bolton in the peaks doesn't drop to 3 car op only (BPN, BIF and Windermere) some of the TPE diagrams will still need to be 6 car...

Although to be honest, I proberbly won't be living here by the time it comes through anyway.
 

tbtc

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I'm not complaining, so long as the LDPE passengers to Scotland are kept seperate and the amount of stock running through Bolton in the peaks doesn't drop to 3 car op only (BPN, BIF and Windermere) some of the TPE diagrams will still need to be 6 car...

Although to be honest, I proberbly won't be living here by the time it comes through anyway.
Diverting the Scottish passengers via Wigan will free up a few seats through Bolton in the short term, before that line is electrified too, so there'll be some improvement for passengers (not more seats, but at least not competing with Scottish passengers for them)
 

Nym

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Yes, but I can see it going to 3 car formations of 185s all day when the scottish services do get sent via Wigan, with the freed up units being used on TP North or South, especially since 1tph BPN and 1tph BIF/WDM isn't doing to need double formations north of Preston any more.

What I could hope for is that they will attach an extra unit at Preston southbound and drop it off Northbound on all the Lakes runs, and run what they can 6 car to Blackpool
 

tbtc

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Yes, but I can see it going to 3 car formations of 185s all day when the scottish services do get sent via Wigan, with the freed up units being used on TP North or South, especially since 1tph BPN and 1tph BIF/WDM isn't doing to need double formations north of Preston any more.

What I could hope for is that they will attach an extra unit at Preston southbound and drop it off Northbound on all the Lakes runs, and run what they can 6 car to Blackpool
Fair enough, though the Blackpool services will be EMUs in a few years (leaving only the bi-hourly Barrow service as the only DMU service through Chorley, assuming that it continues in its current form).
 

Nym

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And bi-hourly Windermere in the opersite path should it return, that it should.

But 6 years limited to 3 coach formation is a rather long time... (2013 - 2019)

Unless they pull their finger out and finish electrification on time, then it was 2016 or 17?

Enough time for them to get the welsh valleys and TP north done by 2019 for pacer replacement? One, maybe, both, no chance. (Not with the same sized team anyway)
 

aformeruser

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Diverting the Scottish passengers via Wigan will free up a few seats through Bolton in the short term, before that line is electrified too, so there'll be some improvement for passengers (not more seats, but at least not competing with Scottish passengers for them)
Assuming there remains 2 TPE services per hour via Bolton. No guarantees have been given on this. When I've suggested before that reinstating the 2 hourly Windermere to Man Airport service before people have objected saying North TPE needs those 'freed up' 185s.
 

tbtc

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Assuming there remains 2 TPE services per hour via Bolton. No guarantees have been given on this. When I've suggested before that reinstating the 2 hourly Windermere to Man Airport service before people have objected saying North TPE needs those 'freed up' 185s.
By the time that the line through Bolton is electrified there may well be no such thing as a separate TPE franchise, so this argument is getting quite hypothetical.
 

aformeruser

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It may return, but (unless it is wired) it seems daft to electrify the gaps between Manchester Airport and Oxenholme and then run a DMU all that way under the wire on a new service.
Manchester Airport to Scotland should be diverted at the end of 2013. They'll be at least 3 years before Manchester-Bolton-Preston is electrified after that. Preston-Blackpool comes first to allow Liverpool-Blackpool services to become EMU and possibly to allow electric services between Blackpool and London if the proposal goes ahead.
 
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