New Build LMS Garratt

[NightStar]

Good Evening, I have not been around much oweing to other projects and a lack of time for things I enjoy as a hobby. But, I'm finding a moment to ask a question about the possibility of a new build of the LMS garratt locomotives? I know several have said they rather have the U1 LNER garratt. But, In all honesty, I think LNER U1 is a terrible choice and would be a huge waste of resources. If a new build is going to take place then it should be of a class that had significant numbers of which there is no survivor for restoration. In this case the LMS 2-6-0-0-6-2 garratt locomotives which had 33 locomotives in the class. The new build would rightfully be the 34 LMS garratt and would be numbered #6678.

Now, whether or not this theoretical new build should try and duplicate the rotary coal bunker? Well that would be left up to the engineering staff of such a new build. I personally don't like them style coal bunkers. But, That is a personal taste issue. :roll:

Outside of Australia there is no other standard gauge garratts. Over here in Ole USA we are a couple of years away from having a Big Boy under steam for the first time since the 1940's. The Western Maryland Scenic Ry is restoring Ex C&O 2-6-6-2 Mallet 1309. The last domestic steam locomotive by Baldwin locomotive works.

So, Is the time right for more big steam around the world? Why not a equally large locomotive by British standards to roam the railways of the UK?

Robert

 

[Tim R-T-C]

You can rebuild anything provided you have enough money.

Although the unwieldly size and weight of a Garrett might somewhat defeat its purpose as a working example given it might struggle to run on most preserved lines and many main line routes too...

 

[onein37]

Wouldn't it also be to big to move around on the back of a lorry to non connected preserved lines.

 

[Mvann]

I'd prefer to restore the standard gauge garratt at bressingham first.

 

[NightStar]

I'd prefer to restore the standard gauge garratt at bressingham first.

Thats a nice garratt locomotive. Thanks for the heads up. I had no idea that any standard gauge garratt survived in the UK.

Robert

 

[Phil.]

Why not build a new A3 and put the present money pit away in a museum where it belongs. I've in the past spoken to men who drove and fired 4472 when it was in B.R. service and all of them stated that it was a shocking engine in both ride and steaming quality.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Why not build a new A3 and put the present money pit away in a museum where it belongs. I've in the past spoken to men who drove and fired 4472 when it was in B.R. service and all of them stated that it was a shocking engine in both ride and steaming quality.

Which of the many thousands who allegedly did this were they?
Spend any time on a steam loco, and someone will come up either claiming to have fired/ driven her, or that their dad, etc did. It's never any other loco. Just occasionally, it's rather fun to let a "veteran" talk, and prove that they are talking utter BS.

 

[ilkestonian]

The LMS Beyer-Garratts were hardly an unqualified success, so apart from logistical difficulties of finding a use for a new build, they would need to be modified from the original spec.

They were heavy on coal and water and had problems with hot boxes. Not sure how the former could be improved, though roller bearings ought to be capable of addressing the latter

 

[CarltonA]

Over here in Ole USA we are a couple of years away from having a Big Boy under steam for the first time since the 1940's.
Robert

I believe it was July 1959 when the last "Big Boy" ran. Certainly there was a serious accident involving one of the class in about 1953 which killed the crew.

 

[John Webb]

The LMS Beyer-Garratts were hardly an unqualified success, so apart from logistical difficulties of finding a use for a new build, they would need to be modified from the original spec.

They were heavy on coal and water and had problems with hot boxes. Not sure how the former could be improved, though roller bearings ought to be capable of addressing the latter

The LMS in their "wisdom" instead of leaving Beyer-Garratt to supply the loco as they would have done, insisted on the axle-boxes being changed to a standard LMS/Midland Railway design which turned out not to be man enough for the job.

 

[Mvann]

Im sure there are better classes of garratts that could be built for standard gauge. How easy would it be to build a regauged Rhodesian 16th class

 

[Monty]

Im sure there are better classes of garratts that could be built for standard gauge. How easy would it be to build a regauged Rhodesian 16th class

While not impossible it would still probably be out of gauge and you wouldn't be able to use it anywhere.

 

[Phil.]

Which of the many thousands who allegedly did this were they?
Spend any time on a steam loco, and someone will come up either claiming to have fired/ driven her, or that their dad, etc did. It's never any other loco. Just occasionally, it's rather fun to let a "veteran" talk, and prove that they are talking utter BS.

Well I'm not sure what you're getting at friend but the conversations that I had were in 1971/2 with drivers who were approaching retirement and had all been firemen and drivers on the ECML in steam days. You can work out the figures for yourself. In 1970 a 60 year old driver would have been born in 1910Leaving school in 1924 and taking twenty years to progress to main line firing would have him aged 34 in 1944. Another ten - twelve years would have him driving in 1954-6 aged 44-46.
I spent a lot of time talking to old drivers listening to tales of when railways were run by time served men who'd had a long "apprenticeship".

 

[NightStar]

I believe it was July 1959 when the last "Big Boy" ran. Certainly there was a serious accident involving one of the class in about 1953 which killed the crew.

I believe you are correct. The point is there is a renewed interest in big steam locomotives all over the world. We have a number of them being restored. Australia recently completed a long rebuild of a AD60 4-8-4+4-8-4 Garratt Locomotive.

We should the UK not have a large articulated or garratt type steam locomotive?

As for Flying Scotsman. I think the problem is too many cooks in the kitchen to be honest. Flying Scotsman being owned by more than one party is more or less her undoing. Even the disposing of the water tender is not in favor with me. :-x

I don't think a new build is in order. Rather a takeover by one individual willing to give the Scotsman what we classify as class 5 overhaul. A complete dismantling of the locomotive for rebuild and re-assembling to a specific specification based on her most accurate appearance through the years.

In this video it sounds like someone indeed did work out some of the design flaws in Flying Scotsman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikNwqcUqKe8 While the double chimney is not as good looking as the single chimney it probably does help with efficient operation of the locomotive. Some other modifications could be modified piston rings, GPCS combustion system, lempor exhaust nozzle. This all having been discussed by David Wardale in his book on modern steam locomotive design.

Robert

 

[markindurham]

I believe you are correct. The point is there is a renewed interest in big steam locomotives all over the world. We have a number of them being restored. Australia recently completed a long rebuild of a AD60 4-8-4+4-8-4 Garratt Locomotive.

We should the UK not have a large articulated or garratt type steam locomotive?

As for Flying Scotsman. I think the problem is too many cooks in the kitchen to be honest. Flying Scotsman being owned by more than one party is more or less her undoing. Even the disposing of the water tender is not in favor with me. :-x

I don't think a new build is in order. Rather a takeover by one individual willing to give the Scotsman what we classify as class 5 overhaul. A complete dismantling of the locomotive for rebuild and re-assembling to a specific specification based on her most accurate appearance through the years.

In this video it sounds like someone indeed did work out some of the design flaws in Flying Scotsman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikNwqcUqKe8 While the double chimney is not as good looking as the single chimney it probably does help with efficient operation of the locomotive. Some other modifications could be modified piston rings, GPCS combustion system, lempor exhaust nozzle. This all having been discussed by David Wardale in his book on modern steam locomotive design.

Robert

There are some Garratts running in the UK - OK, most are on the WHR, but there is one standard gauge one extant - built for industrial service, but nevertheless, standard gauge. Sadly I cannot see a new LMS or LNER Garratt being built though - definitely too slow for main line operation and way too big for the majority of heritage lines.

Flying Scotsman - well, she's certainly been expensive for her previous owners, but she IS now only owned by one entity, the NRM. Mentioning performance upgrades as you do; are you aware that much of the additional expense of the present overhaul is believed to be a legacy of the previous owning regime attempting to get Class 8 power & performance from an elderly Class 7 chassis?

 

[Mvann]

The LMS garratts had an axle load of about 21 tons, so would be very restrictive in use as well as being probably the worst performing garratt that beyer peacock built. If you wanted to build a standard gauge garratt for this country, a reworked design of a class built for abroad would be better.

 

[NightStar]

Ok Everyone, I am really thankful for the imput and insight into the LMS Garratt's. I had only limited resources available for study and was pretty clueless to the real issues with these machines.

As for the Scotsman, I was only somewhat aware of the issues with the locomotive. I was uncertain of just what the extent of the issues are? I did watch the video I linked and started to raise questions about the constant blowing off of the steam valves. The modified boiler was indeed making more steam and power than the engine was capable of using. I am also not a fan of the outboard cylinders. Even bored out beyond the A4 is a bit excessive. The work done on Scotsman reminds me of some of the work done to C&O 4-8-4 614 here in the US. The modifications are a bit excessive, So much to the point of permanent modifications that are not easy to reverse.

There are a lot of interesting new builds out there and I think I would support the P2 Project, Then the A5 Trust new build which sadly has been shelved. Followed by the new build class 22 diesel hydraulic project. http://www.class22newbuild.co.uk/

If I was going to dream up something and waste a couple million pounds, In all seriousness, I would build a new GT3 Gas Turbine locomotive with help from the original turbine engine manufacturer And new advances in computer engineering to work out any weakness in the original design. Yes, A new engine for the sole surviving Gas Turbine could be a realization. But, I like and wish GT3 had been set aside for preservation based on its mechanical significance.

Robert

 

[Townsend Hook]

Wouldn't it also be to big to move around on the back of a lorry to non connected preserved lines.

Not necessarily, but it would need to be split into it's component parts (i.e. two power bogies and the boiler frame).

 

[Bevan Price]

I cannot see a LMS Garratt replica being of much use anywhere. NR would almost certainly not welcome a slow lumbering monster - finding paths for mainline tours would be very difficult for a loco that might just be allowed to reach 45 to 50 mph

And it would not be popular on heritage lines - expensive to run & maintain, and far too large.

A much more useful project would be replicas of smaller locos that escaped preservation, but in the power range covered by 3P/3MT to 5P/5MT steam locos - for example maybe something like a L&YR or (non-compund) MR 4-4-0, or a Raven NER 4-4-2.

 

[Ploughman]

Useful and sensible may be what is wanted but when did that ever apply to what people want.

 

[furnessvale]

Well I'm not sure what you're getting at friend but the conversations that I had were in 1971/2 with drivers who were approaching retirement and had all been firemen and drivers on the ECML in steam days. You can work out the figures for yourself. In 1970 a 60 year old driver would have been born in 1910Leaving school in 1924 and taking twenty years to progress to main line firing would have him aged 34 in 1944. Another ten - twelve years would have him driving in 1954-6 aged 44-46.
I spent a lot of time talking to old drivers listening to tales of when railways were run by time served men who'd had a long "apprenticeship".

Yes. My brother was a fireman then driver on the WCML in steam days, regularly working 200 mile turns.

He smiles when modern preserved railway firemen come back nackered from a 20 mile round trip looking blacker than the back of the tender.