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New build warship class 43

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NightStar

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Evening, I have a nagging question for the new build folk involved with the warship class project?
It would seem there is a very much stripped German V200 diesel sitting un-restored as featured in this video
Would raising the funds and bringing this wreck not greatly speed up the class 43 build even if only the frame is usable and maybe some of the remaining hydraulic drive components?

Here is another photo of this old V200 https://www.flickr.com/photos/mearten279/17067370217/sizes/l/

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Cowley

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I don’t know of any plan to build a North British Warship (class 43), unless I’ve missed something?
There is a group that wants to build a class 22. They’ve bought this book out about them -
B5D22383-237B-49AD-9F9F-7FDFC432E260.jpeg
And you see them at various galas . It’s a completely different locomotive from a 43 though. Far smaller etc.
Interesting video though. The V200 itself looks pretty complete.
 
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Ash Bridge

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I don’t know of any plan to build a North British Warship (class 43), unless I’ve missed something?
There is a group that wants to build a class 22. They’ve bought this book out about them -
View attachment 39498
And you see them at various galas . It’s a completely different locomotive from a 43 though. Far smaller etc.
Interesting video though. The V200 itself looks pretty complete.

Just watched it, from what you can see it does look pretty much intact inside the engine room but the cab interior appears to be completely gutted. The OP mentioned usable components for a class 43, I've noticed some of the cab controls, instruments & switches appear to be identical in a British class 42/43 (pic below) to those in a German V200, length and weight are also virtually the same, perhaps the frame could be used for a new build?
 

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Bedpan

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Is there much difference between a class 42 and a class 43? I would love to see a new build 41, but wasn't aware of any particular difference between a 42 and a 43 other than different manufacturers.
 

Cowley

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Is there much difference between a class 42 and a class 43? I would love to see a new build 41, but wasn't aware of any particular difference between a 42 and a 43 other than different manufacturers.

They were quite different machines even though they looked the same.
Class 42 - Maybach engines and Mekydro hydraulic transmission.
Class 43 - MAN engines (similar to the ones fitted to the class 22s) and Voith/NBL hydraulic transmission.

I think as well (although I’m sure someone will know for sure) that the max speed for each was 90mph class 42 and 80mph for 43.
The 43s seem to have gained a reputation for being more unreliable and less well built than the 42s but again maybe someone else on here has more first hand experiences to share?
 

Cowley

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Just watched it, from what you can see it does look pretty much intact inside the engine room but the cab interior appears to be completely gutted. The OP mentioned usable components for a class 43, I've noticed some of the cab controls, instruments & switches appear to be identical in a British class 42/43 (pic below) to those in a German V200, length and weight are also virtually the same, perhaps the frame could be used for a new build?

I was wondering what sort of engines that V200 was fitted with? I think some had Mercedes engines in them and some were Maybach like the UK Warships.
 

Ash Bridge

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I was wondering what sort of engines that V200 was fitted with? I think some had Mercedes engines in them and some were Maybach like the UK Warships.

Not fully certain on the V200s, I wonder if there were further orders after the initial batch were built by which time Mercedes whom I think bought out Maybach, just applied their moniker to the original Maybach type engine? Weren't the Maybach engines fitted to the Class 42 locomotives built under license by Bristol Sidderley as in the Class 52s?
 
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TheBeard

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My engine comes out of D838 and earlier D859. Be a few million to build a rebuilt warship or even a 22. Now where is the money for a new diesel loco in preservation? There are 1000 members of a hydraulic fb group. Much as would love to do its simply not realistic.
 

Taunton

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I recall them in their heyday. They were very well regarded at first, but rapidly seemed to wear a number of the components, especially the auxiliaries and the suspension.

As I understand it for the engines, there were Maybach in the Swindon-built locos and MAN in the North British ones (including the D63xx). The first few engines, D800-2 and D600-4/D6300-5 respectively) were built in Germany, the production batch were built in Britain, the Maybach ones by Bristol Siddeley in Coventry and the MAN ones by North British themselves in Glasgow. It was generally felt that, while under good conditions they were equal, the North British ones were poorer, particularly for the various auxiliaries NB had designed themselves rather than taking from the German design. The D63xx were particularly unreliable, far more so than their larger compatriots.

There was dissatisfaction at both ends about the North British locos; Swindon felt they should build them themselves and grudgingly sent the drawings (and possibly not quite all of them) to Glasgow, while the NB drawing office likewise felt out of a job and redrew to their own standards (which for diesels was not a lot) where they could, which led to the differences they ended up with.

I believe Maybach were taken over by Daimler-Benz (alias Mercedes) right in the middle of production being transferred, but it didn't cause much of an issue.

The German locos were apparently able to have their engines completely interchangeable, even to the extent of locos sometimes having one of each, but that didn't apply in Britain.

The German body was obviously too large for the UK loading gauge, and in redesigning it at Swindon for the UK gauge while keeping to the lightweight approach where the bodywork is an integral part of the structure many of the useful technical features of it were lost or minimised. That is why I doubt the German loco hulk featured above would be of structural value to any new build project. It's not an engine-and-body-on-heavy frame loco, like early diesel electrics, but a fully integral design.

The operational issue with Warships was their high speed riding. This was a combination of the downsizing of the loco from the German dimensions, and the notably higher speeds attained, for apparently the German locos even on express passenger work didn't get much above 100 km/h, that is 60 mph. They were more powerful that steam locos on the uphill (plenty of this in West Germany) but didn't get much faster on the downhill. They were good when brand new out of works, but the suspension etc parts wore rapidly. Their additional power had been used in Germany more to run heavier trains than to run faster. When they first came out on the Western they were run up to 100mph on Brunel's straights, such as on The Bristolian, but this was progressively cut back to 90 and then 80. Taunton enginemen, who handled them to both Paddington and Plymouth, said the worst was the gently curving descent from Savernake down to Newbury, where they were expected to run at full line speed, and the locos would be something of a bucking bronco. Going DOWN the South Devon banks was not so tightly timed, and some judicious use of the brake would help to steady the loco at the front.
 
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Ash Bridge

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Taunton many thanks for your (as usual) excellent and informative posting, I'm sure I read that Swindon tried to cure or at least improve the ride quality, did they have any success in that?
 

Cowley

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Taunton many thanks for your (as usual) excellent and informative posting, I'm sure I read that Swindon tried to cure or at least improve the ride quality, did they have any success in that?
Much agreed, very interesting.
 

Cowley

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My engine comes out of D838 and earlier D859. Be a few million to build a rebuilt warship or even a 22. Now where is the money for a new diesel loco in preservation? There are 1000 members of a hydraulic fb group. Much as would love to do its simply not realistic.
Are you able to run your engine up TheBeard? Is it up at Bo’ness in a container or something similar?
 

Pinza-C55

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I cabbed Ark Royal when she was in Barry scrapyard in 1979. I would love to see an example of that class rebuilt but I think it will remain forever a pipedream.
 

Cowley

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I cabbed Ark Royal when she was in Barry scrapyard in 1979. I would love to see an example of that class rebuilt but I think it will remain forever a pipedream.
D601 Ark Royal and class 21 D6122 came tantalisingly close to making it into the diesel preservation era. Both being scrapped around 1980 there were already other hydraulics preserved, but I suppose they would have just been seen as complete no hopers at the time?
Did anyone actually consider saving one of them I wonder?
TheBeard would’ve had something to put his engine in then...
 

Pinza-C55

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D601 Ark Royal and class 21 D6122 came tantalisingly close to making it into the diesel preservation era. Both being scrapped around 1980 there were already other hydraulics preserved, but I suppose they would have just been seen as complete no hopers at the time?
Did anyone actually consider saving one of them I wonder?
TheBeard would’ve had something to put his engine in then...

I think it was partly that Dai thought he had to scrap something and because the bodyshell was aluminium ? Of course they were unique compared to other diesel hydraulics. They'd only been in there about 10 years and it's hard to remember exactly at this length of time but I think the engines were intact. Sadly I dropped my camera and it stopped working so I have no photos.
 

Cowley

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I think it was partly that Dai thought he had to scrap something and because the bodyshell was aluminium ? Of course they were unique compared to other diesel hydraulics. They'd only been in there about 10 years and it's hard to remember exactly at this length of time but I think the engines were intact. Sadly I dropped my camera and it stopped working so I have no photos.
Oh dear.
Having done a bit of digging I see that D600 and also class 15 D8206 were in the yard in the early days but were scrapped in 1970.
Question for Taunton (or anyone that knows) if you’re reading this - What sort of reputation did the first batch of Warships (D600 - D604) gain?
They were obviously heavier and were built by North British but I wonder if they showed up problems in traffic that ended up not being addressed properly and perpetuated in the later designs to come from NB, or were they generally quite reliable due to perhaps being looked after more?
 

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I've been digging in my slide collection again, I think this might be an appropriate time to post this....
 

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Cowley

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I've been digging in my slide collection again, I think this might be an appropriate time to post this....

Wow that’s a wonderful photo, what year was that?
I don’t know why you couldn’t have made an offer for it while you were there though?
You could have filled that banana van with spares as well... :lol:
 

Ash Bridge

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1973, I was only 17 so could barely afford a bunch of bananas never mind a secondhand Warship ha ha!
 

TheBeard

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D6122 was the diesel electric version from the eastern and mostly Scottish region. It ended up in Wales via Hither Green rerailings for which it had commonwealth bogies which some southern emus had. Some representation of these may be a little easier to acheive on a budget...
 

Ash Bridge

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D6122 was the diesel electric version from the eastern and mostly Scottish region. It ended up in Wales via Hither Green rerailings for which it had commonwealth bogies which some southern emus had. Some representation of these may be a little easier to acheive on a budget...

Interesting that they replaced the original MAN power unit on these with a Paxman Ventura V12, was it a pair of those that were installed in D830?
 

TheBeard

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Interesting that they replaced the original MAN power unit on these with a Paxman Ventura V12, was it a pair of those that were installed in D830?
Yup, the WR made a lot of effort rebuilding the MAN,but funding wasnt there for any other re-engining than 830 , ScR gave up (perhaps more astutely) and put a new engine in, given less Beeching and more lines the whole class would have been done the 29s were a success. Its a long story but as well as leaky oil the coupling with the gen set was weak(mine has a nice newer simple one) and DC generation at 1500rpm is at its limit. The MAN engine with a Napier is a better thrash!
 

Taunton

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The German high-speed engines were inevitably based on WW2 submarine engines, particularly the MAN. These went into various other NB locos, including the D61xx diesel-electric equivalents of the D63xx hydraulics, used in Scotland, which were so unreliable that they were replaced after some years with equivalent Paxman-built prime movers. There was a smaller version that went into a fleet of NB shunters, also used in Scotland. The Maybach engines, built by Bristol Siddeley (part of Hawker Siddeley, of course, and thus associated with Brush) were quite extensively sold as large and compact generating units on places like oil rigs.

Reports about the D600s were that they rode far better than the mainstream Warships, due doubtless to being 6-axle, but their heavy weight and low power meant they couldn't easily get up to speed. I believe they also had non-standard controls, and thus could only be handled by crews who signed them, and likewise specific fitters training, workshop manuals, and spares holding would be a costly nuisance, especially once the manufacturer was bankrupt. They ended up at Laira intended to be sent west from there so they didn't get into the hands of others, mostly I understand on unfitted freight work in Cornwall where their 6 axles gave them a brake force advantage.

However I have in my mind one lovely warm, quiet summer afternoon, probably August, in what I am guessing was 1967, being up on the footbridge just west of Taunton station. Hadn't seen one for years. Suddenly, from under Staplegrove Road overbridge, a D600 came into view, almost silently, on an up express, all very nicely turned out in the blue livery, at a time when there were still plenty of maroon and even green hydraulics about. It disappeared to stop in the station, and that was the last I ever saw of one.

the WR made a lot of effort rebuilding the MAN,but funding wasnt there for any other re-engining than 830
D830, the one with Paxmans, was actually a Swindon-built Maybach loco, the NBLs being D833-65. I don't recall if it was re-engined or built like that from new. It had a distinctive higher-pitched sound coming under the self-same footbridge. There were various other little differences. D870 had horns on the cab roof, while up to D800-12 didn't have the 4-character route display, but holders for the old GWR-pattern metal plate equivalents. D812 itself had a huge nameplate and was distinctive from a distance.
 
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Ash Bridge

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Yup, the WR made a lot of effort rebuilding the MAN,but funding wasnt there for any other re-engining than 830 , ScR gave up (perhaps more astutely) and put a new engine in, given less Beeching and more lines the whole class would have been done the 29s were a success. Its a long story but as well as leaky oil the coupling with the gen set was weak(mine has a nice newer simple one) and DC generation at 1500rpm is at its limit. The MAN engine with a Napier is a better thrash!

Really interesting, thanks for all that. It's got me wondering now what D830 or indeed a Paxman engined 29 must have sounded like? Valenta engined HST keeps crossing my mind.
 

Cowley

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The German high-speed engines were inevitably based on WW2 submarine engines, particularly the MAN. These went into various other NB locos, including the D61xx diesel-electric equivalents of the D63xx hydraulics, used in Scotland, which were so unreliable that they were replaced after some years with equivalent Paxman-built prime movers. There was a smaller version that went into a fleet of NB shunters, also used in Scotland. The Maybach engines, built by Bristol Siddeley (part of Hawker Siddeley, of course, and thus associated with Brush) were quite extensively sold as large and compact generating units on places like oil rigs.

Reports about the D600s were that they rode far better than the mainstream Warships, due doubtless to being 6-axle, but their heavy weight and low power meant they couldn't easily get up to speed. I believe they also had non-standard controls, and thus could only be handled by crews who signed them, and likewise specific fitters training, workshop manuals, and spares holding would be a costly nuisance, especially once the manufacturer was bankrupt. They ended up at Laira intended to be sent west from there so they didn't get into the hands of others, mostly I understand on unfitted freight work in Cornwall where their 6 axles gave them a brake force advantage.

However I have in my mind one lovely warm, quiet summer afternoon, probably August, in what I am guessing was 1967, being up on the footbridge just west of Taunton station. Hadn't seen one for years. Suddenly, from under Staplegrove Road overbridge, a D600 came into view, almost silently, on an up express, all very nicely turned out in the blue livery, at a time when there were still plenty of maroon and even green hydraulics about. It disappeared to stop in the station, and that was the last I ever saw of one.

Thanks Taunton. Nice to hear about one doing a passenger turn so late in the day.
Them being used on freight makes a lot of sense, especially as they weighed a good thirty tons more than a D800...
 

Flying Phil

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2013-08-19_10 Western and Warship.JPG 2013-08-19_12 Warship.JPG

Here are two pictures of Warships that I took in 1964 in Cardiff - sorry for the quality, they are scanned slides.
 
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