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New build warship class 43

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Taunton

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North British was a brilliant loco builder - of steam locos. Somehow, they never made the transition into buildng consistently reliable main line diesel locos.
As I understand it, North British never made any adequate investment in the precision tools or workforce training necessary to make diesel locos, transmissions, or the various accessories that go on one. The only established builder that seemed to understand the new market was English Electric, who had been doing them, for export, for some time, and who had substantial experience with high precision aircraft manufacture by the time their diesels came along. There were even more substantial failures by the UK builders with diesels in their export markets than for BR.

This sort of mirrored the USA experience, where the three traditional main steam builders floundered with diesels, despite all trying. Alco made a go of things for a while, but were eventually defeated, Baldwin, one-time largest US builder, "did a North British", and produced poor designs which were generally the first to be withdrawn, while Lima hardly got started before giving up.
 
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TheBeard

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Lots of efforts to obtain funding have led to nought. Speaking to many steam railways, you realise simply how little interest there is out there. I've done the container out really nicely.
 

70014IronDuke

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There are, no doubt, a couple of gaps in diesel preservation - one of the LMS twins being the most obvious one by far which a project exists for using the same approach as the Baby Deltic project. Yes a Class 21, 22 or 29 or even D600 Warship would be nice - but what would be a suitable donor from which to work in the way the Baby Deltic project has?....

I honestly can't see much point in a Baby Delitc, TBH, but as for any of the D61xx, D63xx and most certainly the D6xx Warships - what for? A case-study in how to design inefficient, lumbering, failure-prone diesel locomotives?
 

Cowley

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As I understand it, North British never made any adequate investment in the precision tools or workforce training necessary to make diesel locos, transmissions, or the various accessories that go on one. The only established builder that seemed to understand the new market was English Electric, who had been doing them, for export, for some time, and who had substantial experience with high precision aircraft manufacture by the time their diesels came along. There were even more substantial failures by the UK builders with diesels in their export markets than for BR.

This sort of mirrored the USA experience, where the three traditional main steam builders floundered with diesels, despite all trying. Alco made a go of things for a while, but were eventually defeated, Baldwin, one-time largest US builder, "did a North British", and produced poor designs which were generally the first to be withdrawn, while Lima hardly got started before giving up.

That’s really interesting. I hadn’t really thought of it like that before but it makes sense and as Bevan says North British produced excellent steam locomotives.

So then were the NB diesels produced for export also a disaster?
If so I imagine that there was plenty of expensive warranty type work just with the exported stuff to bring an already struggling company down. Let alone the problems with the locos supplied to BR.

I’m wondering also what other problems the North British UK diesels had apart from engine issues?
Whenever you see any photos of a 63XX (there you go Taunton ;)) they always seemed to missing the odd solebar panel and generally looking a bit rough...
Apart from boiler problems though (which plenty of locos suffered back then) and the well known engine issues, did they also have problems with other things like electrics/radiators/brake equipment etc?

On a slightly different note - It’s intriguing to imagine what the next generation of North British diesels might have ended up looking like, assuming that their designs had been successful and they’d remained a player in the market like Brush and English Electric.
Would they have carried on with a version of the droopy eyed design that had become their distinctive style?
 

TheBeard

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Having seen an NBL design for a disc headcoded Blue Pullman 1956 you could argue NBL were the progenitor of the HST!
 

Cowley

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I honestly can't see much point in a Baby Delitc, TBH, but as for any of the D61xx, D63xx and most certainly the D6xx Warships - what for? A case-study in how to design inefficient, lumbering, failure-prone diesel locomotives?
This is railway preservation Iron Duke. Thankfully it’s one area in railways where rationality gets completely thrown out of the window. :lol:

Diesels will never be steam and steam is what the public wants. The general public wanting to travel behind steam is what has generally provided the opportunity for locomotive groups to live out their imaginative dreams and give us enthusiasts a chance to see things we remember or didn’t have a chance to see...

I can’t wait to have a run behind the Baby Deltic. It’s got a different engine in it than a normal Deltic (although still Napier), and it’s not as if I’m paying for it so I’ll just enjoy it at some gala somewhere for what it is.

If rationality came into play then the brake tender at the GCR wouldn’t have been launched last weekend and we wouldn’t have had a chance to relive scenes such as this...
168A0BAA-6A5C-4132-86F6-8E6E0B7917DC.jpeg
(Photo by Derek Wilson)

As The Beard says though there’s no chance of a 61XX, NB Warship or D600 (and I would say 63XX despite that groups intentions) ever getting built. These types are history and will remain so.

Can’t wait to see the CoBo and 15 running again though, and they won’t be running again for the benefit of the average paying customer on a steam railway.
They’ll be restored (beautifully like the Cravens DMU I went on a couple of weeks ago) by some dedicated people who enjoy putting the time in for us that appreciate such things to enjoy.
 

Cowley

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Having seen an NBL design for a disc headcoded Blue Pullman 1956 you could argue NBL were the progenitor of the HST!
Have you got a kettle and a comfy chair in your container?
 

Ash Bridge

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Has anyone ever seen this proposed North British Locomotive of the 1950s before? Developed jointly with C A Parsons it was a 1,750hp coal burning gas turbine 1A1A-1A1A locomotive. (picture credited to John Glover)
 

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Cowley

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Has anyone ever seen this proposed North British Locomotive of the 1950s before? Developed jointly with C A Parsons it was a 1,750hp coal burning gas turbine 1A1A-1A1A locomotive. (picture credited to John Glover)

Single cabbed with speed whiskers.
What’s not to like?
Imagine the clag!
 

Ash Bridge

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It looks more Russian than European don't you think? Shame it never saw light of day, quite purposeful and modern that front end design when you consider its vintage.
 

Cowley

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It looks more Russian than European don't you think? Shame it never saw light of day, quite purposeful and modern that front end design when you consider its vintage.
Definitely.
It slightly reminds me of a ‘Grumpy’ or something similar.
I’m often struck by the panache exhibited in the styling in those days. They weren’t afraid of being bold.
 

Taunton

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It looks more Russian than European don't you think? .
What, with a sun visor over the cab windows? :)

By the way, the bulk of the Russian population (although not the land mass), and I think all the Soviet Union locomotive plants, are in Europe.

There were a couple of attempts at coal-fired turbines at the time, the Norfolk & Western in the USA actually ran a vast coal-fired turbine, the "Jawn Henry", for a while, but gave up. Pulverised coal dust getting into the electrical parts was just one of several issues. https://www.american-rails.com/jawn-henry.html

North British seemed somehow attracted to oddball variations on what was becoming the standard approach to diesels.
 

Ash Bridge

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I take your point about those sun visors, ;)

Was it intended that the fuel supply would be conveyed in an adjacent tender hence the single driving cab design, or do you think it was intended to operate as a double unit?
 

Flying Phil

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This is railway preservation Iron Duke. Thankfully it’s one area in railways where rationality gets completely thrown out of the window. :lol:

Diesels will never be steam and steam is what the public wants. The general public wanting to travel behind steam is what has generally provided the opportunity for locomotive groups to live out their imaginative dreams and give us enthusiasts a chance to see things we remember or didn’t have a chance to see...

I can’t wait to have a run behind the Baby Deltic. It’s got a different engine in it than a normal Deltic (although still Napier), and it’s not as if I’m paying for it so I’ll just enjoy it at some gala somewhere for what it is.

If rationality came into play then the brake tender at the GCR wouldn’t have been launched last weekend and we wouldn’t have had a chance to relive scenes such as this...
View attachment 39742
(Photo by Derek Wilson)

As The Beard says though there’s no chance of a 61XX, NB Warship or D600 (and I would say 63XX despite that groups intentions) ever getting built. These types are history and will remain so.

Can’t wait to see the CoBo and 15 running again though, and they won’t be running again for the benefit of the average paying customer on a steam railway.
They’ll be restored (beautifully like the Cravens DMU I went on a couple of weeks ago) by some dedicated people who enjoy putting the time in for us that appreciate such things to enjoy.

Thanks for that picture Cowley (and Derek Wilson for taking it)....It is my brakevan behind D123!
 
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xotGD

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As this thread seems to have wandered off all over the place - does anyone know what happened to the original Mirrlees JVS12T Class 30 power units? Is there one under a tarpaulin in a barn somewhere that could be refitted into a Ped to recreate a Class 30?
 

Western Lord

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As this thread seems to have wandered off all over the place - does anyone know what happened to the original Mirrlees JVS12T Class 30 power units? Is there one under a tarpaulin in a barn somewhere that could be refitted into a Ped to recreate a Class 30?
I recall reading somewhere years ago that they were refurbished and converted for marine operation.
 

xotGD

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I recall reading somewhere years ago that they were refurbished and converted for marine operation.
Thanks. So there may still be some floating around?

(Sorry for the pun - I couldn't help myself!)
 

TheBeard

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Will look more at what to do with RAPID's engine you may have to wait a couple of decades though! Class 29 frame drawings are being looked at as to costing...
 
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Edders23

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I get very confused by these funny western things which all seem the same but all seem to be different. How come so few made it into preservation?

Give me a Deltic any-day ;)


they were more reliable than the deltics ;)
 

Edders23

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One point not made is that the engines in D830 were prototype venturas whereas the ones put into the NBL diesel electrics were production designs modified through experience gained and of course this engine was redesigned and became the screaming Valenta which was equally as reliable in rail service :lol:
 

Flying Phil

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This was sitting at Quorn on Wednesday....ready for the Diesel Gala this weekend.DSCF7019 small.jpg
 

Edders23

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This is railway preservation Iron Duke. Thankfully it’s one area in railways where rationality gets completely thrown out of the window. :lol:

Diesels will never be steam and steam is what the public wants. The general public wanting to travel behind steam is what has generally provided the opportunity for locomotive groups to live out their imaginative dreams and give us enthusiasts a chance to see things we remember or didn’t have a chance to see...

I can’t wait to have a run behind the Baby Deltic. It’s got a different engine in it than a normal Deltic (although still Napier), and it’s not as if I’m paying for it so I’ll just enjoy it at some gala somewhere for what it is.

If rationality came into play then the brake tender at the GCR wouldn’t have been launched last weekend and we wouldn’t have had a chance to relive scenes such as this...
View attachment 39742
(Photo by Derek Wilson)

As The Beard says though there’s no chance of a 61XX, NB Warship or D600 (and I would say 63XX despite that groups intentions) ever getting built. These types are history and will remain so.

Can’t wait to see the CoBo and 15 running again though, and they won’t be running again for the benefit of the average paying customer on a steam railway.
They’ll be restored (beautifully like the Cravens DMU I went on a couple of weeks ago) by some dedicated people who enjoy putting the time in for us that appreciate such things to enjoy.


hmmmm...........diesel brake tender on vacuum braked stock Doh !!! still it's their railway they can if they want
 

randyrippley

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D830, the one with Paxmans, was actually a Swindon-built Maybach loco, the NBLs being D833-65. I don't recall if it was re-engined or built like that from new. It had a distinctive higher-pitched sound coming under the self-same footbridge. ................

Fitted from new
 

randyrippley

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One point not made is that the engines in D830 were prototype venturas whereas the ones put into the NBL diesel electrics were production designs modified through experience gained and of course this engine was redesigned and became the screaming Valenta which was equally as reliable in rail service :lol:

Are you sure? I understood the Venturas were identical except for the power rating
 
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randyrippley

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Didn't the 41s go to Landore for a period at the end of their careers? Presumably to move unfitted coal wagons up and down valleys! Don't think it lasted long and given the need to train drivers and fitters for just five locos seems an odd move.

They were a short term stand-in for faulty / late delivered class 37
 

atsf_fT

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The class 41s were sent to landore to work coal trains but were hopless, failed to many times and sent back to Laria and withdrawn .

D830s paxman was a good reliable engine its major fault was its crankshaft bearings ,they only had two spare crank shafts for the two engines in D830 and one by one they were used up the cost of new replacement was twice the cost of a maybach one, so D830 was withdrawn with the lowest mileage
of any warship.
Paxman rebuilt the engine design and beefed up the crankshaft etc and the new engine model name was the the Valenta which went in the class 43 HST
 

Taunton

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D830s paxman was a good reliable engine its major fault was its crankshaft bearings ,they only had two spare crank shafts for the two engines in D830 and one by one they were used up the cost of new replacement was twice the cost of a Maybach one, so D830 was withdrawn with the lowest mileage of any Warship.
I'm surprised, D830 and its distinctive sound was very regular through Taunton in the 1960s on main line services, whereas the pioneer trio, D800-802, with the prototype lower power Maybach engines, actually built in Germany rather than by Bristol Siddeley, were always conspicuous by their absence - I think they may have been confined to west of Plymouth. They were also withdrawn before D830.
 

AndrewE

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hmmmm...........diesel brake tender on vacuum braked stock Doh !!! still it's their railway they can if they want
I don't think air-braked freight existed when the originals were built (apart from some special captive stuff like maybe the Northwich limestone hoppers.) How much of the GCR freight stock is air-braked anyway?
 
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I'm surprised, D830 and its distinctive sound was very regular through Taunton in the 1960s on main line services, whereas the pioneer trio, D800-802, with the prototype lower power Maybach engines, actually built in Germany rather than by Bristol Siddeley, were always conspicuous by their absence - I think they may have been confined to west of Plymouth. They were also withdrawn before D830.
Not so for 800 - 802. They were regularly on the Waterloo - Exeter services in 1966-1968 - but I never saw 830 work that line. My only sighting of 830 was at Weymouth.
 
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