New bus schemes, have they learnt from FTR?

[cnjb8]

Most of us know that First rolled out their FTR scheme with their Wright StreetCar's to cities like York and Swansea. To cut a long story short, it failed.
Yet this type of scheme seems to be having a revival. The Glider in Belfast along with what Birmingham has planned (I forget the name, CitySprint I think) seem to have the same principles/format as FTR.
First York also still operates Mercedes-Benz bendies albeit in a different format which seem to be infinitely more successful at what they're designed for.
Why do councils or however plans these things seem to want to go back to the FTR style of things? Is the Glider successful? Is it because it uses Van Hooks? Would the FTR been successful if it used Mercedes-Benz like the ones on York Park & Ride duties?
Sorry, I know I've rambled. Any thoughts?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main reason FTR failed is that it didn't have open boarding. Prior to tap-in tap-out contactless, open boarding was key to getting tram-style dwell times.

But now we do have contactless, we can get "regular" dual door buses down to almost tram boarding/alighting speeds...so things change a bit. London buses now turn over passengers far faster than even the old Routemasters did with conductor operation.

That said, I don't like "fake tram" buses, if you want a bendy bus just get a good bendy bus like a Merc Citaro-G.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most of us know that First rolled out their FTR scheme with their Wright StreetCar's to cities like York and Swansea. To cut a long story short, it failed.
Yet this type of scheme seems to be having a revival. The Glider in Belfast along with what Birmingham has planned (I forget the name, CitySprint I think) seem to have the same principles/format as FTR.
First York also still operates Mercedes-Benz bendies albeit in a different format which seem to be infinitely more successful at what they're designed for.
Why do councils or however plans these things seem to want to go back to the FTR style of things? Is the Glider successful? Is it because it uses Van Hooks? Would the FTR been successful if it used Mercedes-Benz like the ones on York Park & Ride duties?
Sorry, I know I've rambled. Any thoughts?

York's current bendi fleet is employed on standard bus (Park and Ride) operation rather than anything like FTR. Bendi operation is perfectly fine in the UK (yes, even in London) and also still persists in Bath and Aberdeen among other places. It also operated in Birmingham along the Tyburn Road. The main blockers on using standard bendis being a) road design and position of street furniture, b) cost - both purchase and running is higher than a decker c) fare evasion, d) bus stop design, e) restrictions on depot space including maintenance facilities.

I know that people will point to other countries and why can't we be like Germany or the Netherlands and you can have an umpahloompahkaart that is a chip inserted into the left earlobe (I exaggerate ).....and indeed we could but we don't. Our spending priorities have been different. Operators and local authorities have gone for bendis with a measure of success in the past and could in future but the issues listed above will need to be tackled.

The main reason FTR failed is that it didn't have open boarding. Prior to tap-in tap-out contactless, open boarding was key to getting tram-style dwell times.

But now we do have contactless, we can get "regular" dual door buses down to almost tram boarding/alighting speeds...so things change a bit. London buses now turn over passengers far faster than even the old Routemasters did with conductor operation.

That said, I don't like "fake tram" buses, if you want a bendy bus just get a good bendy bus like a Merc Citaro-G.

FTR failed on two counts. You are right to highlight fare handling. First were to have off bus ticketing as a central part of the concept but failing to achieve this meant a double crew which killed the economics. However, in the intervening 14 years, the world has changed markedly with smart phone technology so tap in/tap out is now much more cost efficient.

Secondly, the capacity was pitiful so you had a highly compromised design where a Streetcar had the same capacity as a standard B7RLE Eclipse. So on that basis.... if it seats the same, costs more buy, consumes more fuel, demands more maintenance....why buy it? One of the most baffling and stupid episodes in the Lockhead years and that's saying something.

You're absolutely right - if you're going to have a rapid transit system based on bendis....just get a Citaro to the highest standard (e.g no Urban 90 seats).

 

[anthony263]

The ftr in Swansea was killed because of the accidents on the kingsway not the fault of the scheme plus the vehicles were so fuel first due to the small engines

 

[Pat1105]

The Sprint between Walsall and Birmingham is ridiculous in my opinion. There is already a regular train service and 5 bus services (4 of which are Platinum) operating. I think it will be a failure and a waste of money, that can be better spent elsewhere.

 

[bluenoxid]

The Belfast Glider is doing well. The big driver appears to be bus priority

One of the most baffling and stupid episodes in the Lockhead years and that's saying something.

A silly respondent would say that the alternative would have been a three line Supertram network that would have impacted Firstbus revenues in Leeds.

 

[Skutter]

In York the ftr was launched as a premium service on the main University route, where First had a monopoly. But when the local company started a rival service using old buses but a cheaper fare, many of the passengers switched pretty quickly. There goes the profit margin.

Also whoever approved the short-lived self-service ticket machine had clearly never tried it with a real member of the public, they were really poor.

 

[leedslad82]

When first moved the ftr onto the 72 leeds bradford route and ran it as hyperlink they looked great just in my view as a passenger weren't very practical. Most of the time you had standing passengers due to low seating capacity and the rear door was exit only. If they had used both doors for entry dwell times at stops would have been reduced. Maybe they were ahead of their time. Bulk of passengers in Leeds seem to use contactless or m tickets now where as back then it was cash fares only

 

[Bletchleyite]

When first moved the ftr onto the 72 leeds bradford route and ran it as hyperlink they looked great just in my view as a passenger weren't very practical. Most of the time you had standing passengers due to low seating capacity and the rear door was exit only. If they had used both doors for entry dwell times at stops would have been reduced. Maybe they were ahead of their time. Bulk of passengers in Leeds seem to use contactless or m tickets now where as back then it was cash fares only

I'm not sure dual door boarding on buses does speed things up that much. Having a one-way flow (so people board and alight at the same time) would I reckon make almost as much difference. Even the central pole on old single-door stepped-entrance buses did this to some extent.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The ftr in Swansea was killed because of the accidents on the kingsway not the fault of the scheme plus the vehicles were so fuel first due to the small engines

I think there were alot more issues than that.

 

[alangla]

In Las Vegas, the Wright Streetcars are or were used for a fast, limited stop, service up the strip (SDX) - ticketing is off bus (might be a vending machine on board) and they carry security guards on board. The stopping service is Enviro 500s (The Deuce) that only carry a driver. It seems to work reasonably well, most tourist passengers appear to use the Deuce even though it’s glacially slow, SDX is miles faster. It’s a fairly short journey unless you’re going all the way from the bottom end of the strip to downtown so comfort isn’t a huge issue. As for the streetcars at Luton airport, less said the better. They could barely climb the hill into the airport with a full load

 

[NorthernSpirit]

In York the ftr was launched as a premium service on the main University route, where First had a monopoly. But when the local company started a rival service using old buses but a cheaper fare, many of the passengers switched pretty quickly. There goes the profit margin. Also whoever approved the short-lived self-service ticket machine had clearly never tried it with a real member of the public, they were really poor.

I remember the state of the road around Heslington Hall that mostly resembled the Acropolis a month or so after the FTR were introduced. When they were withdrawn, local folk started to complain in the local comic that is the York Press, that the deckers that replaced the FTR's were banging into overhanging branches.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The thing with FTR is that it didn't fail because it used bendy buses, it failed because it was a project that could never be fully executed and the vehicles themselves were poorly designed with higher running costs and low capacity.

Other places in the UK did/still do run articulated buses very successfully.

 

[Leeds1970]

if memory serves me correctly Birmingham had bendys along time ago _Leyland nationals cannot remember which route they were on...

 

[GusB]

if memory serves me correctly Birmingham had bendys along time ago _Leyland nationals cannot remember which route they were on...

There were no articulated Nationals. What you would have seen were Leyland-DAB artics which carried bodywork constructed from Leyland National parts. If I remember correctly they served with South Yorkshire PTE before moving on to various part of the country.

Didn't Midland Red have some MAN artics at one time?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There were no articulated Nationals. What you would have seen were Leyland-DAB artics which carried bodywork constructed from Leyland National parts. If I remember correctly they served with South Yorkshire PTE before moving on to various part of the country.

Didn't Midland Red have some MAN artics at one time?

Correct on both counts.

South Yorkshire PTE had 5 Leyland-DAB artics with the parts bin raided so they looked a bit like Nationals. They subsequently ended up with operators like Hampshire Bus and McGills (the original not the current operator) and into various non PCV roles. SYPTE also had 5 MAN SG192 artics and these were also employed with the DABs on City Clipper services in Sheffield. They were less reliable and ended up with Midland Red North in Cannock before sale and export to Australia on account of their prodigious fuel consumption (and this was MRN who had a fleet of Nationals!!).

SYPTE weren't daunted and bought a fleet of updated Leyland-DAB artics (more in the DAB mould with Alsuisse construction) in 1985 and they lasted some time on City Clipper and running the Meadowhall Shuttle, probably into the mid 1990s.

It should be remembered that these were real trailblazers at the time. I can remember my dad getting me to travel with him and one was parked up in his firm's Central Works - it was like the space shuttle had landed. A lot of places took these on demonstration so they appeared everywhere at some stage seemingly.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Some of the Leyland DABs served with Bath Bus Company when they ran local routes to neighbouring towns. Gained BBZ xxxx registrations

 

[Man of Kent]

if memory serves me correctly Birmingham had bendys along time ago _Leyland nationals cannot remember which route they were on...

Travel West Midlands had articulated Mercedes O405Gs on route 67 between Birmingham city centre and Castle Vale. I believe it was for the marketing of this route that Ray Stenning coined the name bendybus.

They were later replace by low-floor Scania artics, while there were also Mercedes Citaros that ran in Coventry until relatively recently.

 

[zebedee104]

Travel West Midlands had articulated Mercedes O405Gs on route 67 between Birmingham city centre and Castle Vale. I believe it was for the marketing of this route that Ray Stenning coined the name bendybus.

They were later replace by low-floor Scania artics, while there were also Mercedes Citaros that ran in Coventry until relatively recently.

As someone who grew up in Sheffield at the time of the bendies, we called them bendybuses right from the outset with the original trial batch. It may not have been shown on side of the bus, as the PTE called the originals Cityliners, but The Star (the local paper) and the public soon used the name Bendybus. With respect to Mr Stenning, he coined nothing here.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Travel West Midlands had articulated Mercedes O405Gs on route 67 between Birmingham city centre and Castle Vale. I believe it was for the marketing of this route that Ray Stenning coined the name bendybus.

They were later replace by low-floor Scania artics, while there were also Mercedes Citaros that ran in Coventry until relatively recently.

The use of bendibus definitely precedes those Mercedes of the early 2000s - https://www.flickr.com/photos/fray_...r-24XkwD4-GDJyvC-s8dGY7-nhq7Vs-HQPAhn-cqjyEs/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Some of the Leyland DABs served with Bath Bus Company when they ran local routes to neighbouring towns. Gained BBZ xxxx registrations

Indeed - if you know where to look, you can even find some bus stops with articulated buses on them in the local area. It's why, of a fashion, Bath still has bendibuses.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Correct on both counts.

South Yorkshire PTE had 5 Leyland-DAB artics with the parts bin raided so they looked a bit like Nationals. They subsequently ended up with operators like Hampshire Bus and McGills (the original not the current operator) and into various non PCV roles. SYPTE also had 5 MAN SG192 artics and these were also employed with the DABs on City Clipper services in Sheffield. They were less reliable and ended up with Midland Red North in Cannock before sale and export to Australia on account of their prodigious fuel consumption (and this was MRN who had a fleet of Nationals!!).

SYPTE weren't daunted and bought a fleet of updated Leyland-DAB artics (more in the DAB mould with Alsuisse construction) in 1985 and they lasted some time on City Clipper and running the Meadowhall Shuttle, probably into the mid 1990s.

It should be remembered that these were real trailblazers at the time. I can remember my dad getting me to travel with him and one was parked up in his firm's Central Works - it was like the space shuttle had landed. A lot of places took these on demonstration so they appeared everywhere at some stage seemingly.

Some of the Leyland DABs served with Bath Bus Company when they ran local routes to neighbouring towns. Gained BBZ xxxx registrations

At least three of them still survive in the UK, one is preserved while the other two survive on a yard in Winkleigh, Devon allegedly also in preservation but sadly are in very poor condition having been abandoned in the same place for many years.

 

[padbus]

In the late 1970s SYPTE showed great interest in operating articulated buses and a left hand drive Volvo was shipped over for inspection. However at the 1978 Motor Show MAN had a right hand drive artic operating a free park & ride service within the grounds of the NEC. It was white with green and orange stripes and chevrons and the word "BENDIBUS" in block capitals. So, I think we can blame MAN for the British use of bendibus.

A first operator to use the MAN bendibus in service was City of Oxford who had it on loan in December 1978. It was used on the Park & Ride service which, before central Oxford was pedestrianised, ran straight through the city between P&R sites to the north and south. As the use of bendibuses was not legal at the time, no fares were charged. However, it did not enter service till after the morning rush hour by which time all the commuters had bought their return tickets so little revenue was lost.

SYPTE did go on the operate similar MANs, in much the same livery but by 1982 a dispute with the unions resulted in them being not being used so City of Oxford had them on loan. By this time their use was fully legal and they operated between the Rail Station and Blackbird Leys. Eventually they moved on to Midland Red North before being exported to Australia.

 

[Man of Kent]

The use of bendibus definitely precedes those Mercedes of the early 2000s - https://www.flickr.com/photos/fray_...r-24XkwD4-GDJyvC-s8dGY7-nhq7Vs-HQPAhn-cqjyEs/

Delighted to have been proved wrong. I wonder who did originate the description?