New c2c trains

[absolutelymilk]

c2c have promised to bring in new trains for 2019, but no word on what they will be like - would a follow-on order to the 700s be considered?

(There is already a closed thread about this http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=116351&page=2)

 

[swt class 450]

c2c have promised to bring in new trains for 2019, but no word on what they will be like - would a follow-on order to the 700s be considered?

(There is already a closed thread about this http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=116351&page=2)

Im very surprised that they are already considering getting new trains when they already have a very modern fleet of 357s and 387s at the moment!

 

[absolutelymilk]

Im very surprised that they are already considering getting new trains when they already have a very modern fleet of 357s and 387s at the moment!

The 387s are only on lease until 2019 when the new trains arrive. The new trains were a franchise commitment. c2c were given a 15 year franchise.

 

[TH172341]

It would be sensible to speculate there's a good chance it could be an Aventra variant. C2C have built up a good working relationship with Bombardier over the years.

 

[43096]

Im very surprised that they are already considering getting new trains when they already have a very modern fleet of 357s and 387s at the moment!

Suggest you read the requirements of their franchise then!

They are committed to ordering a new fleet of 17 x 4-car units for introduction from 2019. The 387s are an early start to this following the timetable change, which showed up capacity issues.

Once the new sets arrive, the 387s will move elsewhere.

 

[Hophead]

Do they have to be "new"? 30 AC-powered Electrostars will be freed up in the next few years, so some could sit nicely alongside the existing stock. A refresh should satisfy most commuters. I'm sure the franchise agreement can be varied if needs be.

 

[43096]

Do they have to be "new"? 30 AC-powered Electrostars will be freed up in the next few years, so some could sit nicely alongside the existing stock. A refresh should satisfy most commuters. I'm sure the franchise agreement can be varied if needs be.

That's a good point, and would make a lot of sense. There are also 26 x AC Desiros coming available.

Whether the detailed Anglia cascade plan makes them available for 2019, I don't know. Priority is presumably to replace the ex-BR 317/321 fleets first so they don't need PRM modifications before 31/12/19.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't imagine those Desiros ending up anywhere other than LM or successor.


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[Wivenswold]

The Stansted Standlers (or Standlers - I'm determined to make that a thing)
should arrive during 2019 so the timing could be perfect to release 379s. They could take the lot and off-lease some of the older 357s to elsewhere.

There will be 31 air-conditioned Dusty Bins going spare around then too........

I'm sure I read here that C2C had rejected the notion of taking the 360s from the Heathrow service. Though there could have been a number of reasons, the AGA 360s will need a refurb by then but are perfectly good commuter trains.

 

[FordFocus]

Where are all the 379s due to go then ultimately?

 

[jopsuk]

when they do get their new trains will they revert the current 17 "metro" layout 357s back to the same spec as the rest of the fleet?

 

[racyrich]

Looking at next week's new timetable, of the morning trains that c2c considers peak, ie arriving 7.00 - 9.30, there are 11 x 4 cars, 26 x 8 cars and 10 x 12 cars.

Obviously a few will have time to make 2 return trips, but that's a lot of scope for lengthening.

 

[Kite159]

I wouldn't be surprised if the new trains are not Aventras of some description

 

[Wivenswold]

Where are all the 379s due to go then ultimately?

Nothing confirmed yet. They, along with the 360s and 170s, will probably have peaked the interest of a number of operators already.

 

[D365]

I wouldn't be surprised if the new trains are not Aventras of some description

Why do you think that they will not be Aventras?

 

[43096]

I'm sure I read here that C2C had rejected the notion of taking the 360s from the Heathrow service. Though there could have been a number of reasons, the AGA 360s will need a refurb by then but are perfectly good commuter trains.

There was a proposal for c2c to take 360s from Heathrow before they signed up for the 387s. It was BAA who got cold feet, as it would have put the Heathrow service at risk.

 

[MatthewRead]

There was a proposal for c2c to take 360s from Heathrow before they signed up for the 387s. It was BAA who got cold feet, as it would have put the Heathrow service at risk.

Remember when C2C used Silverlink 321/4's from December 2006 how long was that for?

 

[D365]

Remember when C2C used Silverlink 321/4's from December 2006 how long was that for?

It was a very short-term measure. I believe they covered for unavailable Class 357 units rather than being used for timetable enhancement.

 

[wls1]

The jan timetable does fix some of the issues, but not all of them. Also c2c going fully DOO allowed them to have more 12 cars in peak. But now barely anything is stopping them from running 12 cars over the loop, which are needed in the morning. Not so much as in the evening, crowding is much less at that time except in the 4 cars.

I dread to thing what will happen when one of the 387s breaks down at Limehouse or West Ham, using all 6 at the same time can be a bad decision, (not aware on what their doing about converters in 357s).

Its still better than the dec 2015 timetable thats for sure!

 

[Wivenswold]

Hmm, so I guess we can't rule out the 21 Desiros from Greater Anglia. It's about time we sent them more of our old kit.

 

[D365]

Hmm, so I guess we can't rule out the 21 Desiros from Greater Anglia.

Well we can, because the franchise agreement specifically states that it must be 17 new trains.

In any case, bearing in mind the consist of the existing c2c fleet, why would Desiro units be more suitable than Electrostars?

 

[wls1]

Hmm, so I guess we can't rule out the 21 Desiros from Greater Anglia. It's about time we sent them more of our old kit.

The problem with that is that their a different type of train, all maintenance will be different. That will mean training more staff for longer, and getting staff from Siemens instead of from Bombardier. 379s may be a better option to come from GA's fleet that will be passed on. Or maybe new bombardier trains will require less staff training than a completely different type of train from a different manufacturer?

Time will tell, c2c still say to passengers that they haven't ordered the new trains yet so no definitive answer as of yet.

 

[Kite159]

Why do you think that they will not be Aventras?

As if they are new build they won't be Electrostars as that production line would have finished with the 387s being built for GWR (probably).
My wording was wrong (blame trying to ignore the sound of drunken football fans trying to sing various rude songs)

I would imagine the new stock would be Aventra based, but who knows could also be CAF stock

 

[Wivenswold]

Well we can, because the franchise agreement specifically states that it must be 17 new trains.

In any case, bearing in mind the consist of the existing c2c fleet, why would Desiro units be more suitable than Electrostars?

Just throwing ideas out there. There would be no certainty that C2C would get first dibs on the 379s.

Franchise agreements can be altered, especially if it's to the DfT's benefit.

 

[D365]

My wording was wrong (blame trying to ignore the sound of drunken football fans trying to sing various rude songs)

Oh right, understood

 

[jopsuk]

Reality check:
There's no way the specification will include "must be able to to work with twenty year old units". It will almost certainly include " must be able to rescue and be rescued by the Class 357s"

Which means that if it's new stock there's absolutely no favourite manufacturer. It will go to tender and all interested parties (which could be Bombardier, Siemens, CAF, Hitachi, Stadler or even Alstom) will submit bids.

 

[Mikey C]

Well we can, because the franchise agreement specifically states that it must be 17 new trains.

In any case, bearing in mind the consist of the existing c2c fleet, why would Desiro units be more suitable than Electrostars?

While that might be in the franchise agreement, surely if Electrostars are going spare, by far the closest stock to what they have already, surely this makes more sense than a new completely different fleet.

If C2C announced they were taking, plucking a figure out of the sky, 21 secondhand Electrostars instead of 17 new trains, resulting in longer trains and more seats for commuters, would people really be upset?

 

[wls1]

21 secondhand Electrostars instead of 17 new trains, resulting in longer trains and more seats for commuters, would people really be upset?

Thats if the D(a)ft will allow it, they are finicky when companies try to get more trains than what they've said.

Also c2c dont really use their stock very well with their current timetable so i dread to think what its going to be like then.

 

[47802]

I see no reason why C2C wont be getting new trains as agreed, the 379's apart from not being new, are more medium distance config seating wise which they would probably need to change, I expect they will order new trains tailored to their requirements which maybe more of a 700 style seating layout, i.e. narrow 2+2 seating with wide corridor connections.

 

[chris11256]

One of the main concerns is what manufacturers have sufficient spare capacity for fulfil the order. First delivery dates are 2019.

But from what I've been told the plan is simply to go out to tender and see what comes back. No preference yet as to any manufacturer.