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New c2c trains

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swt_passenger

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As far as I am aware, if indeed they are still fitted, the 350/1 shoes are locked in place.
At least some 350/1s are still fully fitted, but unless you look carefully the raised shoegear is almost completely hidden behind the shoe beam. AIUI the shoe arm mechanism is 'spring retained' in either position while allowing for normal up/down variations in operation, but the LM units have a couple of cable ties fitted for 'belt and braces'.
 
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wls1

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357031 and 357320 are the ones affected, quite badly damaged so due to be out of service for quite some time.
 

chris11256

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Was confirmed at Passenger Panel last night that the new stock will have 3+2 seating. c2c are expecting to place the order within the next few months(with dft approval) and as a result weren't able to say which manufacturer it is. Only that it's a next-generation train.
 

delticdave

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Was confirmed at Passenger Panel last night that the new stock will have 3+2 seating. c2c are expecting to place the order within the next few months(with dft approval) and as a result weren't able to say which manufacturer it is. Only that it's a next-generation train.
How many units do c2c have to lease over & above the current fleet? ISTR that they were required to add 19 4-car sets, but I could easily be wrong.....
DC
 

chris11256

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As far as i'm aware the franchise agreement says 17 trains. Which should arrive as the 387s get returned.
 

whhistle

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What's the betting it won't be a next-gen stock, it'll just be a 345/2 or whatever...
Although Siemens did pretty well developing their "City" train for Scotrail from the original 350 design.
 

hwl

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What's the betting it won't be a next-gen stock, it'll just be a 345/2 or whatever...
Although Siemens did pretty well developing their "City" train for Scotrail from the original 350 design.
Aventra is next Gen
 

wipers

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I'd put money on it being the Aventra, given the current fleet and relationship with Bombardier.
 

samuelmorris

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Considering the last few 387s are still in production, referring to Aventra as 'next generation' seems perfectly valid to me, I think that point is rather pedantic.

I'd still be very surprised if the new stock was not 710s (or a unit the same as them with an arbitrary class number) with 357 style interiors.
 

whhistle

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Ho hum.
I understand, but still consider anything current as current, while "next gen" is the next version of.

Wonder if it'll be like the 221's and the 222's - solve all the problems and produce a new-ish product. I also guess [the 222 is] still their current product for Intercity diesel, despite not having any orders of them for many years.
 

samuelmorris

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As far as I know Bombardier no longer offer any diesel products.
With an order size of only 68 vehicles, the c2c units will not be anything particularly different from what has come before. Only orders of the magnitude of the Anglia, SWR, Crossrail or Thameslink procurements really justify development of a new product and even then it often doesn't pay off unless other orders come in afterwards.
 

D365

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Wonder if it'll be like the 221's and the 222's - solve all the problems and produce a new-ish product.

Are you aware of any significant flaws in the Class 345 or Class 710 design?
 

samuelmorris

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That's not a flaw, it's common sense with the 345s as they're fixed-formation. Less obvious with the 710s but really, especially with no guards to be concerned with, I'm not sure there's that much value in harming the train's aerodynamics and the driver's field of vision with a gangway connector.
 

Class172

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Hasn't that been fixed for the Abellio West Midlands order?
I wouldn't necessarily say that the lack of a inter-unit gangway on the Crossrail and LO fleets is a flaw in their design that needed to be fixed, but yes, the new units ordered for the WMR franchise will have gangways, largely due to the number of Cross-City services that operate as 6 carriage formations, and also the degree of portion working on the WCML services.
 

Domh245

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Quoting the site:
Local passengers will benefit from thousands of extra seats within the next four years thanks to a £100m+ deal for new trains signed by Trenitalia-owned train operator c2c, manufacturers Bombardier and financiers Porterbrook and agreed with the Department for Transport.

60 carriages of Bombardier’s latest Aventra train will be delivered to c2c from the summer of 2021 – up to three years earlier than previously planned. The new fleet will add nearly 20% more seats and capacity for over 5,000 more passengers to c2c’s current fleet and meet the expected future local passenger growth across south Essex and east London.

The Aventra is one of the fastest-selling trains in the UK rail industry, and these new trains will be manufactured at Bombardier’s factory in Derby. Each new train, which will operate in a fixed set of 10-carriages, will include over 900 seats, plus air-conditioning, wifi, plug sockets and three toilets onboard. Each new carriage is larger and contains more seats than on c2c’s current trains, so each 10-carriage new train provides capacity for 15% more passengers onboard compared to a current 12-carriage c2c train.

The delivery programme for new trains has been accelerated by c2c following its acquisition by Italian rail giants Trenitalia earlier this year. The entire new fleet had been scheduled for a phased delivery until 2024, but will now be entirely delivered by the end of 2021.

c2c Managing Director Julian Drury said: “This is excellent news for c2c customers and we’re delighted to have secured such an important long-term deal for local passengers and the local economy. We have accelerated our original plans for new trains because of the scale of growth planned in the boom areas of south Essex and east London, and these British-built trains will help ensure c2c is playing its part in unlocking those benefits to the economy.”

Rail Minister Paul Maynard said: “We are making the biggest investment in the railways since Victorian times to meet the growing demand for rail travel and improve both journey times and passenger comfort. These British-built Bombardier trains, which are coming into service earlier than planned, will provide much needed extra capacity for thousands of passengers across London and Essex, and also come with facilities such as Wi-Fi, air-conditioning and plug sockets.”

Richard Hunter, UK Managing Director, Bombardier Transportation, said, “Our modern Aventra trains are proving ever more popular and this order will help transform the travel experience for c2c passengers and deliver 25% more seats to c2c’s fleet. This important contract win demonstrates Bombardier is the first choice when it comes to delivering high quality, transportation products and services, and value-adding long-term solutions for our customers. It’s yet another endorsement of our workforce and the quality of the products we design, engineer, manufacture and service in the UK.”

Mary Grant, CEO for Porterbrook, said: “We are delighted that, through the supply of these new Bombardier Aventra vehicles, Porterbrook will be contributing to an improved service and experience for c2c passengers. This demonstrates Porterbrook’s ongoing commitment to the UK rail industry and our customer Trenatalia. We look forward to supporting our industry partners and continuing to make further significant investments.”

This is the latest in a series of improvements c2c has made to meet growing passenger demand, including new trains and new timetables. Last year c2c introduced 24 new carriages on a short-term contract, and these units will now be extended until the arrival of the new fleet. c2c also remains in discussions for leasing additional carriages from December 2019 until the new trains arrive 18 months later, with an update expected next year.

Also seen it reported that they'll be 100mph variants. Based on whats been reported, I'd expect them to be similar to the GA Aventras.

Image from Bombardier's Twitter:
DRAa8D8WAAEJOro.jpg
 

swt_passenger

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How come they can say that delivery by 2021 is up to three years earlier than planned, yet this thread was started as a result of a requirement to bring in 68 vehicles by 2019?

What sort of interior layout will they have to give a 10 vehicle train (presume 23m or 24m vehicles) a seated capacity of 900?

That's 18 rows of 2+3 per vehicle average - before you deal with toilets, DDA etc etc...
 

chris11256

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How come they can say that delivery by 2021 is up to three years earlier than planned, yet this thread was started as a result of a requirement to bring in 68 vehicles by 2019?

What sort of interior layout will they have to give a 10 vehicle train (presume 23m or 24m vehicles) a seated capacity of 900?

That's 18 rows of 2+3 per vehicle average - before you deal with toilets, DDA etc etc...

Originally the new units were coming in three batches betweeen 2019 & 2024. Was confirmed at last passenger panel that they will be 3+2.
 

swt_passenger

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Originally the new units were coming in three batches betweeen 2019 & 2024. Was confirmed at last passenger panel that they will be 3+2.
Ah thanks, I'd missed that it was phased like that. I expect that detail was kept fairly low profile in the original announcements...
 

chris11256

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Another interesting part of their press release.

'Last year c2c introduced 24 new carriages on a short-term contract, and these units will now be extended until the arrival of the new fleet. c2c also remains in discussions for leasing additional carriages from December 2019 until the new trains arrive 18 months later, with an update expected next year.'

So they're extending the lease of the 387s and looking at additional carriages between 2019 & 2021.
 
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