New CAF and Bombardier stock for West Midlands Trains

[MCR247]

They did produce a diagram of the trains but they never made a claim vs. the AVENTRA. British parts on the TL Desiro's are pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things, certainly vs. AVENTRA.

Ah okay, it was vague memory, seems like a lifetime ago the order was placed tbh

 

[F Great Eastern]

I think the orders speak for themselves in terms of cost, specification and quality - the AVENTRA isn't winning these orders because it's built in Derby but that's a massive positive vs. importing them. 99.9% of people don't care where the trains are made, so long as they get them from A to B on time, but that doesn't make the benefit to the UK economy any less real. Agree that the 800 is totally overplayed in terms of the 'Made in Britain' angle.

A friend of mine worked in the public sector in the past.

A lot of the tenders ended up being wrote in a very specific way and more often than not a lot of local companies won these tenders, despite the fact that some of the winners of these tenders would have very little experience or a track record in the industry that they were tendering for, yet won the tenders over established and well recognized providers.

Most of the winning tenderer parties had trouble delivering their product either on time or on budget and many of those who did had serious issues in the short and long term with the products or services that they provided. It helped the local economy and some people made a fair whack out of it, but the products and services ultimately had to be soon replaced as they were not fit for purpose.

If the quality of your product isn't good it has to be replaced more quickly or costs more to operate or is more unreliable, this means any short term benefit of an economic boost is slowly eroded away over the life of the product because of the increased costs. In these cases it often would have been better to have just gone for the better product wherever it was from day one.

I'm not saying that Bombardier don't have a clue what they are doing, I'm sure that they do, but you need to have a proper competitive rolling stock market in order to keep the bidders honest, keep quality levels up and keep prices down, seeing all the orders going to the same parties is only going to drag that in a downward fashion since realistically a rolling stock market needs a presence like Siemens/Alstom since they are the one manufacturer who can realistically challenge and keep Bombardier on it's toes.

Although I guess nobody cares about the long term since on the current form they'll be scrapped after less than 20 years anyway.

 

[sd0733]

With the cross city fleet entering service in 2020 will his mean that the 323 fleet would need some form of PRM mods to get them past the deadline?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With the cross city fleet entering service in 2020 will his mean that the 323 fleet would need some form of PRM mods to get them past the deadline?

One would assume so, unless a derogation is granted. If Porterbrook have any hope of finding homes for them they'll need it anyway. Though with so many new EMUs being ordered for the already-electrified lines we're running out of places they could go. Hopefully Northern will see sense and take the 323s instead of the non-flex 319s.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks. Interesting Abellio have specified corridor connections for 3 and 4 car DMUs when Arriva didn't for 2 and 3 car DMUs. I would have thought the chance of Northern running a 5 or 6 car DMU formation is much higher than the chance of West Midlands running a 7 or 8 car one.

The Abellio West Mids order is for 2 and 4 car DMUs. At present all weekday diagrams for 2-car 172s on the Snow Hill lines have them working in multiple, and the new 2-car units will no doubt also be used to strengthen 4-car units to 6-car formations, so it makes sense to have the fleet corridor connection fitted.

The notion of Northern operating more than a 4-car formation of the new trains seems somewhat optimistic.

 

[pemma]

^ Not really Northern have requested platform lengthening to allow 5 and 6 car formations to be operated on certain routes.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

With the cross city fleet entering service in 2020 will his mean that the 323 fleet would need some form of PRM mods to get them past the deadline?

A spokesman for Bomby has just stated in a BBC interview that they will start construction in about a year, if they build the 3-car stuff first it could be problem solved.

 

[The Ham]

The lack of a cab door droplight is to me a bit of a safety issue (no view of the train after "buzz buzz") unless a certain three letters are rearing their head again.

Ah that explains the strike threat on SWR as their guards are told to despatch from the local doors (no drop lights), which means this totally unsafe way of working must mean that we're just minutes away from from a case of multiple deaths given the number of services and passengers they carry...

 

[Monty]

Ah that explains the strike threat on SWR as their guards are told to despatch from the local doors (no drop lights), which means this totally unsafe way of working must mean that we're just minutes away from from a case of multiple deaths given the number of services and passengers they carry...

No need to make it personal.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Ah that explains the strike threat on SWR as their guards are told to despatch from the local doors (no drop lights), which means this totally unsafe way of working must mean that we're just minutes away from from a case of multiple deaths given the number of services and passengers they carry...

Staff on the Snow Hill Line and many other routes have been self despatching from local doors for many years with no issue. I do hope this does not turn into another thread about rail investment that involves Mr Cash and his supporters waving a red flag in more ways than one.

 

[Ticket Monster]

I think they're making a mistake ordering 3 car suburban EMUs. 3 cars is woefully inadequate during times of peak demand, and I'd be surprised if they run everything as a 6 car like they need to be.

And we've got another 3 years or so of probable growth before we even see these new trains. Can't wait!

The livery displayed in the pics is a bit dull too...

 

[Ticket Monster]

Also what's this crap about cab droplights? When I started as a conductor we were explicitly told not to have our heads out of open windows. Personally I never leave a platform facing window open - getting spat at once was enough thanks.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I think they're making a mistake ordering 3 car suburban EMUs. 3 cars is woefully inadequate during times of peak demand, and I'd be surprised if they run everything as a 6 car like they need to be.

Need not be a problem, considering there is going to be a large amount of four car EMU's that will be less than half way through their life around the next few years, but who knows, it might be 20 years and scrap so they'll have to order more after all.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

I think they're making a mistake ordering 3 car suburban EMUs. 3 cars is woefully inadequate during times of peak demand, and I'd be surprised if they run everything as a 6 car like they need to be.

And we've got another 3 years or so of probable growth before we even see these new trains. Can't wait!

The livery displayed in the pics is a bit dull too...

I to wonder if growth may outstrip the additional capacity on offer but at least we have some this time. The last franchise gave us sixty nine class 172 vehicles when it was clear that at least half a dozen more were needed on day one never mind growth. Time will tell.
As for livery, I travel on the on the inside of the train so it's seating layout, loo facilities and general ambiance that I'm concerned with.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

The Abellio West Mids order is for 2 and 4 car DMUs. At present all weekday diagrams for 2-car 172s on the Snow Hill lines have them working in multiple, and the new 2-car units will no doubt also be used to strengthen 4-car units to 6-car formations, so it makes sense to have the fleet corridor connection fitted.

The notion of Northern operating more than a 4-car formation of the new trains seems somewhat optimistic.

Do not assume that the new stuff is all for Snow Hill Jobs, the deployment strategy is still unclear.

 

[Ticket Monster]

I to wonder if growth may outstrip the additional capacity on offer but at least we have some this time.

But do we? I'm assuming the 36 suburban sets will be taking over at least some services on BHM-Rugeley after electrification. Also the Cross City extension to Bromsgrove will swallow up so of the extra capacity I would think.

 

[Ticket Monster]

Do not assume that the new stuff is all for Snow Hill Jobs, the deployment strategy is still unclear.

Haha "strategy"!
You think there's a plan? Lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also what's this crap about cab droplights? When I started as a conductor we were explicitly told not to have our heads out of open windows. Personally I never leave a platform facing window open - getting spat at once was enough thanks.

The "crap" about it is that it is impossible to see if anyone falls down the side of the train on dispatch and stop it. It's a safety measure that was lost with the coming of the second generation DMUs (except 150/1).

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Haha "strategy"!
You think there's a plan? Lol

Someone has a plan but what is it! and things like Chase and Bromsgrove need sorting before the new stuff arrives.

 

[tomuk]

There will be 36x 3 car Aventras replacing the 26x 3 car 323 that's a 38% increase. Plus if they go for 24m aventra that's a few more rows per set on top.

The CAF DMUs will be for the Shrewsbury, Herefords and 2tph Worcester - Snow Hill replacing the 170s.

They could also be used on the Nuneaton-Coventry-Leamington services later on.

 

[Ticket Monster]

The "crap" about it is that it is impossible to see if anyone falls down the side of the train on dispatch and stop it. It's a safety measure that was lost with the coming of the second generation DMUs (except 150/1).

I was trained to keep my head inside the train at all times. And as someone else pointed out, we routinely dispatch from elsewhere in the train already, where there are no droplights fitted.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

There will be 36x 3 car Aventras replacing the 26x 3 car 323 that's a 38% increase. Plus if they go for 24m aventra that's a few more rows per set on top.

The CAF DMUs will be for the Shrewsbury, Herefords and 2tph Worcester - Snow Hill replacing the 170s.

They could also be used on the Nuneaton-Coventry-Leamington services later on.

So Abellio have said 172 operation for Nuneaton-Coventry so I assume the Kenilworth jobs as well. What happens to the other no loo, no gangway ended LO 172s and there are still not enough units for all the extra jobs coming up before the new stuff is built.

 

[Darkinsider]

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[Domh245]

I think they're making a mistake ordering 3 car suburban EMUs. 3 cars is woefully inadequate during times of peak demand, and I'd be surprised if they run everything as a 6 car like they need to be.

As @tomuk has just alluded to, the number of 3 car EMUs for use on Birmingham Suburban services is being grown fairly significantly, they should be able to double up enough of the services that need them.

Looking at a diagram list, there are 22 323s in daily service (4 of which are coupled together for the whole day's service so in essence there are 20 trains), out of 26, so obviously they can't double each one up permanently. However, with a bit of fleet re-allocation, they can probably have it so that all bar a few of the peak services are doubled.

 

[Class172]

Someone has a plan but what is it! and things like Chase and Bromsgrove need sorting before the new stuff arrives.

Indeed, whilst we know what stock is going to be arriving, we haven't a clue as to how the DMUs are (along with the 172s) going to be used.

The CAF DMUs will be for the Shrewsbury, Herefords and 2tph Worcester - Snow Hill replacing the 170s.

Whilst in my opinion this would be the most logical solution, by keeping fleets (172s/CAF DMUs) to separate services and avoiding the need for the 172s to be split into having a suburban/regional layout (assuming they were refurbished for Hereford/Shrewsbury services), can I ask where you obtained this information, or is it your personal opinion merely presented as fact? Especially as the franchise award stated the new stock was for the Snow Hill Lines.

 

[TheDavibob]

As @tomuk has just alluded to, the number of 3 car EMUs for use on Birmingham Suburban services is being grown fairly significantly, they should be able to double up enough of the services that need them.

Looking at a diagram list, there are 22 323s in daily service (4 of which are coupled together for the whole day's service so in essence there are 20 trains), out of 26, so obviously they can't double each one up permanently. However, with a bit of fleet re-allocation, they can probably have it so that all bar a few of the peak services are doubled.

How many 323s/whatever are required for a full Cross-City service alone? Various bits of the literature imply that the new fleet would be Cross-City dedicated (with presumably 350s (?) taking over Chase and Wolves locals).

 

[Ticket Monster]

... they can probably have it so that all bar a few of the peak services are doubled.

I think anyone who works on or travels this line would agree that all peak services need to be 6 car now. In 2-3 years that's going to be even more apparent. Plus don't forget with electrification works those extra 10 sets are going to be spread pretty thin.
Personally I'd love it if we got to keep some or all the 323s as well, although I can't see it happening. They're a joy to work on.

 

[Ticket Monster]

How many 323s/whatever are required for a full Cross-City service alone? Various bits of the literature imply that the new fleet would be Cross-City dedicated (with presumably 350s (?) taking over Chase and Wolves locals).

Someone quoted 22 for a full service, although that includes 1 for the Intl shuttle, and however many are on Walsall-Wolves.

I'm pretty sure 350s won't be able to work Chase line without SDO or platform lengthening. Bloxwich is definitely too short for a 4 car 350. Landywood probably is too. Not sure off hand about others. And you'd think if they were going to increase platform lengths they would've made a start on it by now...

 

[Darkinsider]

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[12guard4]

I don't see too much of an increase in double set working on the cross city to what is currently double sets. An increase in 10 but I guess 4 of those will be used for Rugeley, another few will be used on cross city to accommodate the bromsgrove work with a few left spare.