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New CAF and Bombardier stock for West Midlands Trains

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Old Hill Bank

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SLUG (Stourbridge line users group) facebook page published (mid September) and quickly removed a presentation from Abelio dated 3 days after the franchise award.

Loral 172's to arrive. Loral 172's to work cov - nuneaton and Leamington services. 230's for Bedfords. New diesal fleet to work Snowhill services. 172's to work Hereford and Shrewsburys plus i guess strenghen Snow Hill Line services.

The franchise announcement mentioned refurb of trains so to completely change a 172 interior to a better less suburban setup (with toilets) is probably not too difficult.
The SLUG stuff has never been taken down, take it from me as the site Admin. The full format version is on our website (Link provided). That is day one headline stuff. what it never covered is interim arrangements until the new stock arrives, that remains a mystery.
http://www.stourbridgelineusergroup.info/News - New Franchise - Abellio Presentation.pdf
 
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I don't see too much of an increase in double set working on the cross city to what is currently double sets.

In which case there is still not going to be enough capacity on the cross city. The hinted 'metro style' seats should help us squeeze more people on per set though at least.
The good news is our passengers are getting used to standing. I'm sure they'll be looking forward to standing in shiny new trains!
 

Bletchleyite

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Many people don't mind standing for short journeys if the train is designed for it, hence my view that the S8 (or Crossrail) layout would work reasonably well.
 

Old Hill Bank

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Someone quoted 22 for a full service, although that includes 1 for the Intl shuttle, and however many are on Walsall-Wolves.

I'm pretty sure 350s won't be able to work Chase line without SDO or platform lengthening. Bloxwich is definitely too short for a 4 car 350. Landywood probably is too. Not sure off hand about others. And you'd think if they were going to increase platform lengths they would've made a start on it by now...
This is one of the points I'm making. Chase Line needs EMUs, Bromsgrove needs EMUs and Kenilworth need a DMU. There is no new stock advertised until the 170/0s become free in May (perhaps) then they need a works job to make them compatible at least in part with the rest of the fleet. In the short term I am concerned about short forming in the West Midlands not extra capacity.
 

tomuk

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Yes we know that but what happens until they enter service.

The 170s and 153s aren't going until 2020 and the LO 172s and 230s will be introduced at the end 2018.

Off peak there are 323s on Soho and 170s sat on Tyseley. Even 319s sat at Camden.

There is enough stock to cover the extra mins running time to Bromsgrove and a couple of units for the Rugeleys.
 

Old Hill Bank

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The 170s and 153s aren't going until 2020 and the LO 172s and 230s will be introduced at the end 2018.

Off peak there are 323s on Soho and 170s sat on Tyseley. Even 319s sat at Camden.

There is enough stock to cover the extra mins running time to Bromsgrove and a couple of units for the Rugeleys.
I expect some X-city jobs will be reduced from 6 car to 3 just to cover Bromsgrove (not convinced about running times) No EMUs for Chase lines and quite what you think we do with 319s sat at Camden unless they run all day on the WCML and you try and put 350s on the Chase jobs. It's another interim failure if you take 350s off WCML services to service Chase and release the very last 323 onto X-City. Where is the DMU coming from to do Kenilworth or is that caped.
 

the sniper

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I don't see too much of an increase in double set working on the cross city to what is currently double sets. An increase in 10 but I guess 4 of those will be used for Rugeley, another few will be used on cross city to accommodate the bromsgrove work with a few left spare.

Of the little that has been said officially, the DfT made it clear in the franchise winner announcement that there'd be "100 new carriages on the Cross City line". The DfT said these new units on Cross City will have "standing room for 50,000 passengers in Birmingham in metro-style carriages, similar to the ones used on the London Overground, for short cross-city journeys". If there is not to be a massive reduction in seating on the Cross City with this (DfT talk of "20,000 extra seats for rush hour passengers in Birmingham", don't admitttedly don't specify where) I think it is inevitable that almost every diagram on the Cross City will have to run as a double set.

Even now you could do with running everything departing New Street between 1600 and 1830 in either direction as a 323x2. Come 2020, with a reduced amount of seating on each new unit, the idea that you could run anything but predominantly double sets seems incomprehensible and highly unlikely to me given what the DfT have said.

There's also been speculation about where the new diesels are going. Lets not forget again that the franchise winner announcement expressed clearly that there's be "80 new carriages for the Snow Hill line".

All this can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ly-1-billion-is-invested-in-midlands-services

Many people don't mind standing for short journeys if the train is designed for it, hence my view that the S8 (or Crossrail) layout would work reasonably well.

I still think it'll cause a stink. Though I don't imagine it'll all be transverse seating, which might appease the large number of people who travel to and from the extremities of the Cross City line, Lichfield, Redditch and eventually Bromsgrove.
 

Chester1

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Agree that the 800 is totally overplayed in terms of the 'Made in Britain' angle.

I am not sure the ~950 staff employed at Newton Aycliffe would agree with that. Talgo has said it is keen on building a factory in the UK that builds trains from start to finish and hopefully they will. Hitachi have built a good base in the UK and may expand it depending on winning UK or perhaps export orders. CAF will open its Newport factory in a years time employing an intial 200 staff and the site is smaller than Hitachi's but again it is a start. Hopefully Alstom will build some trains at their Widness site too. Its not clear which CAF units will be built in Newport yet. Starting assembly late next year would indicate Northern first.
 

the sniper

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I expect some X-city jobs will be reduced from 6 car to 3 just to cover Bromsgrove (not convinced about running times) No EMUs for Chase lines and quite what you think we do with 319s sat at Camden unless they run all day on the WCML and you try and put 350s on the Chase jobs. It's another interim failure if you take 350s off WCML services to service Chase and release the very last 323 onto X-City. Where is the DMU coming from to do Kenilworth or is that caped.

If we're talking short term solutions at least, the 350s will not been seen on the Chase line. They don't fit half the platforms. Personally I can't see 350s up there in the longer term either, but they could theoretially be modified for SDO operation or platforms extended. I think that is unlikely though.

I could personally see 323s being retained for Rugeley, Walsall - Wolverhampton (maybe the extension to Crewe via Stoke stopper too), though that's speculation on my part. Maybe ex-Northern 323s could play a part at some point? Any 323s being retained will have to be internally refitted, so I suppose it doesn't matter if WMT keep exLM or Northern ones.
 

Old Hill Bank

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Of the little that has been said officially, the DfT made it clear in the franchise winner announcement that there'd be "100 new carriages on the Cross City line". The DfT said these new units on Cross City will have "standing room for 50,000 passengers in Birmingham in metro-style carriages, similar to the ones used on the London Overground, for short cross-city journeys". If there is not to be a massive reduction in seating on the Cross City with this (DfT talk of "20,000 extra seats for rush hour passengers in Birmingham", don't admitttedly don't specify where) I think it is inevitable that almost every diagram on the Cross City will have to run as a double set.

Even now you could do with running everything departing New Street between 1600 and 1830 in either direction as a 323x2. Come 2020, with a reduced amount of seating on each new unit, the idea that you could run anything but predominantly double sets seems incomprehensible and highly unlikely to me given what the DfT have said.

There's also been speculation about where the new diesels are going. Lets not forget again that the franchise winner announcement expressed clearly that there's be "80 new carriages for the Snow Hill line".

All this can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ly-1-billion-is-invested-in-midlands-services



I still think it'll cause a stink. Though I don't imagine it'll all be transverse seating, which might appease the large number of people who travel to and from the extremities of the Cross City line, Lichfield, Redditch and eventually Bromsgrove.

As for the new DMUs it's a new story about deployment plans every time you ask, personally I see no point in moving the 172s on the grounds of the pain of traction training every other WMT midland depot on them as well as the new build, better just give ALL the Snow Hill depots training on the new stuff then you get a lot of operational flexibility.
The point you make about getting a seat if you start your journey at the extremity of a commuter route is fine in the morning peak but does not work in the evening, I always found that the people who had to stand on the shorter journeys in the morning had the sharpest elbows when it came to getting a seat on the way home lol
 
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the sniper

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The point you make about getting a seat if you start your journey at the extremity of a commuter route is fine in the morning peak but does not work in the evening, I always found that the people who had to stand on the shorter journeys in the morning had the sharpest elbows when it came to getting a seat on the way home lol

I entirely agree. While people on here often argue that 3+2 transverse seating is a pointless waste of space as people don't use the middle seats, in the peaks on the cross city the middle seats are regularly used. If you told someone using one of those seats that they'd lose that seat on the new stock and need to stand for 20+ minutes for the greater good of other standing passengers, it'd be a hard sell! :lol:
 
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12guard4

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Increasing standing room is no more than a way to increase capacity on the cheap. They might as well say we know this train needs extra carriages but we aren't investing in any so have some extra standing room instead.
 

pemma

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Do not assume that the new stuff is all for Snow Hill Jobs, the deployment strategy is still unclear.

Well it's unlikely a 172 can work in multiple with a 195 while it's also unlikely one can rescue the other so 195s having their own routes would make sense.
 

tomuk

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I expect some X-city jobs will be reduced from 6 car to 3 just to cover Bromsgrove (not convinced about running times) No EMUs for Chase lines and quite what you think we do with 319s sat at Camden unless they run all day on the WCML and you try and put 350s on the Chase jobs. It's another interim failure if you take 350s off WCML services to service Chase and release the very last 323 onto X-City. Where is the DMU coming from to do Kenilworth or is that caped.

The 323s that terminate at Longbridge are timetabled to wait in the turnback siding for 5 mins. Lonbridge to Bromsgrove is 6 mins.

The Kenilworth shuttle is booked for a 75 mph sprinter. ie 153. You could free up a 153 by swapping a 3car 170 from the Shrewsbury turn (sometimes this is 4/5/6 cars) with a 2 car 170/153 combo on the Rugeleys.
 

simple simon

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As someone who lives in the London area where standing for 20 minutes (especially at busy times) is 'the norm' so I wish you 'good luck' when you complain about similar for the West Midlands.
 

the sniper

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Why should they not be engineered to work together, do you have knowledge or an issue.

Only going by the images shown on the railway gazette site, but their image shows the new DMU as not having a BSI coupling, which the 172s do. Whether that is accurate though, I don't know!
 
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tomuk

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Chester1

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Increasing standing room is no more than a way to increase capacity on the cheap. They might as well say we know this train needs extra carriages but we aren't investing in any so have some extra standing room instead.

It depends on the difference between peak and off peak usage. Merseyrail's new trains will have more standing capacity because 8 coach trains would be a huge waste of money. They will be 2+2 seating but the seats will be the width of 3+2 to allow more standing in the middle. I think that would have been a better option for the City line rather than transverse seating.

As someone who lives in the London area where standing for 20 minutes (especially at busy times) is 'the norm' so I wish you 'good luck' when you complain about similar for the West Midlands.

I always laugh when I hear or read someone complaining about having to stand if they say it wouldn't happen in London! The rest of the UK needs much more public transport infrastructure investment but London certainly needs more trains and buses too.
 

wipers

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I’m not massively familiar with the London Midland network and despite going through every post in this thread, still can’t quite see where the new trains will actually go, particularly which the ‘outer suburban’ routes are. Is anyone able to explain?...basically where will the Aventra’s being going? Many thanks!
 

tomuk

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Confirmation on Midlands Today, a report by Peter Plisner on the anouncement, that the CAF DMUs will be for regional services to Shrewsbury, Hereford and Stratford Upon Avon
 

centraltrains

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I don't see too much of an increase in double set working on the cross city to what is currently double sets. An increase in 10 but I guess 4 of those will be used for Rugeley, another few will be used on cross city to accommodate the bromsgrove work with a few left spare.
Doesn't the new franchise want to aim to run most services through New St as through services through which could potentially mean that some WCML fleet is used for this?
 

the sniper

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Confirmation on Midlands Today, a report by Peter Plisner on the anouncement, that the CAF DMUs will be for regional services to Shrewsbury, Hereford and Stratford Upon Avon

With the greatest of respect to Peter Plisner, I'll wait and see. The report on the Midlands Today facebook page doesn't mention the DMUs, but everything else he said could be deduced from information we have sources for here. Maybe he's right, but I'd be surprised if Midlands Today turns out to be the definitive source for future rolling stock allocations.
 

ChrisHogan

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I agree completely. Peter Plisner is hardly renowned for his accuracy in rail matters. His report again ignored the fact that the new XCity units' layout was part of the DfT consultation.
 
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The 323s that terminate at Longbridge are timetabled to wait in the turnback siding for 5 mins. Lonbridge to Bromsgrove is 6 mins.


It's 4 mins Longbridge to Barnt Green. I'd suggest at least another 3 or 4 to Bromsgrove. I'll reserve judgement on the speed uphill, can't see 323s doing it in much of a hurry!
 

61653 HTAFC

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I am not sure the ~950 staff employed at Newton Aycliffe would agree with that. Talgo has said it is keen on building a factory in the UK that builds trains from start to finish and hopefully they will. Hitachi have built a good base in the UK and may expand it depending on winning UK or perhaps export orders. CAF will open its Newport factory in a years time employing an intial 200 staff and the site is smaller than Hitachi's but again it is a start. Hopefully Alstom will build some trains at their Widness site too. Its not clear which CAF units will be built in Newport yet. Starting assembly late next year would indicate Northern first.
Hang on, wasn't the story that the CAF bid for Northern stock was competitively priced due to CAF wanting to avoid lay-offs at Zaragoza? If that was indeed the case then building Northern's 195s at Newport would seem unlikely.
 
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