New Chester to Leeds service

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by absolutelymilk, 16 Feb 2018.

  1. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    As well as reducing the service these stations have had for years (Mytholmroyd is already seeing service reductions next month).
     
  2. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    There are 2tph from Warrington Central to Piccadilly plus the TfW from Bank Quay to Piccadilly. It is a cross platform change at Piccadilly on to the fast 2tph TPE service to Huddersfield and Leeds. Even from the Northern Chester service, a change at Victoria on to the following TPE Liverpool to Scarborough train will get you to Leeds 20 minutes earlier than remaining on the Northern train through Halifax and Bradford!
     
  3. John C

    John C Member

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    From my observations been a regular user of Calder valley services the Leeds-Chester through service has really only become a big issue with reliability since the introduction of the class 195’s, prior to this in general the route was fairly reliable for time keeping and had nowhere near the current level of full/part cancellations (i.e terminating at Warrington).
     
  4. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    And is there *that* much Warrington-West Yorkshire demand?
     
  5. Old Yard Dog

    Old Yard Dog Member

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    Leeds isn't the centre of the universe. I travel regularly from west Cheshire to Bradford and the new service is very useful.
     
  6. The Prisoner

    The Prisoner Member

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    Hebden Bridge has four times as many services per hour call as Runcorn East. The latter has no significant means to grow its usage numbers given a stagnation in service. That would suggest typically as many people get on a service at Runcorn East as Hebden Bridge, so why call at one and not the other? My point is that the service in this part of the world (Cheshire) is dreadful - a second service per hour Chester - Manchester is welcome, but it would make more sense that TfW add a second service to serve Frodsham and Runcorn East in particular than this curious combination of express and stopper.
     
  7. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    According to the latest available ORR statistics (i.e. those for 2017/18) Hebden Bridge has well over four times the patronage of Runcorn East; naturally enough, in the middle of the day, it has four times as many trains calling. At peak, however, it only gets one additional service (0701 Hebden Bridge to Leeds) whereas the service at Runcorn East is almost doubled, due to:
    1) the TfW service being (briefly) enhanced;
    2) some of the NT Chester/Ellesmere Port services calling.
    So I would say that, relative to patronage, Runcorn East has a noticeably better train service than Hebden Bridge.

    P.S. A great pity, I think, that ORR figures are always twelve months behind the times, lots can happen in that sort of timescale.
     
  8. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    According to 'Realtime Trains', it's not the intention that Leeds - Chester/Ellesmere Port should be split from the Leeds - Manchester Victoria (via Halifax) shorts (as had been predicted, from the December timetable change). Either that was never the intention, or plans have changed.

    As to York - Blackpool, it does appear that the service is indeed going to be separated from the York - Leeds (via Garforth & Cross Gates) shorts, but it does not mean there is going to be an extra diagram, rather York - Blackpool is going to become tighter than it currently is, and York - Leeds slacker. I don't see the point of this, tbh, unless it's the intention that the York - Leeds shorts be interworked with something else, and there's no sign of that happening for the time being.
     
  9. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    What are you referring to as 'Leeds to Man vic express'? Only the TPE services do Leeds to Manchester noticeably faster than the Northern, and they're already scheduled to continue to destinations beyond Victoria.
     
  10. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    I'm not saying that I think splitting the service at Victoria would be a good thing, but feel compelled to challenge the notion that there would be a 50 minute layover at Victoria, ex-Chester. There are services the Chester could interwork with, without requiring an additional diagram.

    There are also 2tphpd between Piccadilly and the Chat Moss line (one or two extra at peak), but westbound they don't conflict with anything eastbound.

    One thing I do think is that, for a TOC to be permitted to introduce a new service, it should be required to prove it has the staff and rolling stock to maintain it.
     
  11. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    The Victoria terminators generally skip Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd, but a few do add Littleborough, and one even adds Smithy Bridge. So the difference between the two services is tiny.
     
  12. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    Hebden Bridge is far more of a tourist attraction than Runcorn East will ever be.
     
  13. Llama

    Llama Established Member

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    To be fair, for the Chester service Northern did have both, until the 195s were diagrammed on it.
     
  14. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    I assume the eventual plan is for York - Blackpool to become fully 195 operated, with the Leeds - York becoming sprinter operated
     
  15. 156420

    156420 Member

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    They will be separate from Dec - Blackpool-York 158/195’s.

    Leeds-York shuttles 158’s.
     
  16. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    But is it worth making a mess of a timetable just to avoid using 195s on York - Leeds terminators? It's only a matter of 2 x 195.
     
  17. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    Looking at the timetable it's probably more to increase layover at York. As it stands the Blackpool's will have 23 minutes layover but by keeping them in with the Leeds stoppers would give just 8 minutes from the Blackpool arrival to the Leeds departing
     
  18. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    Leeds to York section could well have knock-on effects for TPE and others, if a Class 195 on that section developed the same type of door fault that recently occurred at Cark causing a delay of 30 minutes on a Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester Airport service.
     
  19. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    The original plan was more trains per hour over the Calder Valley route which is yet to materialise
     
  20. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    The theoretical increase in the layover time at York is not a consequence of the York - Blackpool and York - Leeds being split, it's a consequence of the Blackpool service being significantly accelerated. End to end times are down by as much as seventeen minutes, with only two stops knocked out. That represents quite a tightening.
     
  21. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    I should add, the York - Leeds times have, of course, been recast, but they didn't need to be, the fact that they have been is a consequence of the routes being split, not a cause of it.
     
  22. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    How I read geoffk's post, I think he was considering the possibility of the Manchester Victoria terminators serving Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd, rather than the Chester/Ellesmere Port trains. So the total number of trains calling at those stations would not be altered.
     
  23. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    I think somebody has previously been proposing those stations having their service level increased which has always been a HADRAG aspiration

    The original franchise proposal was 3 or even 4 tph Bradford-Manchester which would probably have allowed that to happen. But there is no sign in the intermediate future of that being delivered
     
  24. northernchris

    northernchris Member

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    I hadn't realised the time savings were so big! Although it does seem the Leeds - York section is where the greatest time saving occurs as well as the section between Halifax and Hebden Bridge where stops are removed

    The TPE services are being recast, so the stoppers are having to change to fit around these. The Leeds - York typically leaves at xx:24 now, following out the xx:21 Scarborough, however from the timetable change the Scarborough moves to xx:27 with the Blackpool - York leaving at xx:30
     

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