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New Chester to Leeds service

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transmanche

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I haven't managed to find any explanation for the delay, so perhaps it was a fatality but was hushed up, which I believe is commonplace now.
Northern tweeted that services were disrupted "due to a train striking an obstruction on the track" between Halifax and Bradford Interchange.

D8Z_QHtXkAAT423.png:small

Image shows a Travel Update tweeted by Northern, giving information and advice.

Source: https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/1136735966796963841
 
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Old Yard Dog

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New services often seem to have delays at various places along the route. Bradford to Huddersfield started with long waits at Halifax and still remains pedestrian. And the Grand Central service still takes 100 mins or so to get from Bradford to Doncaster. And now the new Chester to Leeds train even has to defer to freight trains.

Does Network Rail have a pecking order where faster established services are given better paths? TPE has been given paths over the Orsdall curve in preference to Northern when the former's services can easily reach Piccadilly and the Airport via Guide Bridge while Calderdale services cannot.
 

Geeves

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Two 142s were stepped up to work that 1D77 so at least something ran. It didn't seem to be handled very well by the east side control. We had no train crew for 2258 and 2319 to Leeds and had to arrange buses. There was an RTA above Beacon Hill tunnel that knocked a lamp post onto the line which was subsequently ran over by 1B43, That was the end of the Calder valley running normally for the rest of the night.

As has been said before these extra long round the houses trains do suffer very easily. Victoria itself is now ran so tightly that even a minute of two in the platforms soon messes things up!
 

Ianno87

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Does Network Rail have a pecking order where faster established services are given better paths? TPE has been given paths over the Orsdall curve in preference to Northern when the former's services can easily reach Piccadilly and the Airport via Guide Bridge while Calderdale services cannot.

Existing rights have a higher level of priority than those with an expectation of rights (usually new services)
 

Mathew S

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Is 2 cars for an hourly service on this really adequate?
At the moment, it seems to be (though the unit I caught on this service last week was a 3-car 158, and I've seen 158+153 combos on it as well). Remember this is a brand new service, so it will take time to grow the market. Also, there are other services on the same route both east and west of Manchester, so it's only an hourly service if you're travelling right through.

As I understand it, this is also one of the routes that will be part of the Northern Connect thing, so should get 195s rather than the current hodgepodge of 158s + others.
 

Greybeard33

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Existing rights have a higher level of priority than those with an expectation of rights (usually new services)
This appears to be yet another example of a new or enhanced service, originally promised for the much delayed December 2017 timetable, which has collided with the reality of inadequate infrastructure that cannot provide appropriate paths. Northern gets the flak, but it was the DfT and Rail North that originally specified the new services in the franchise ITT. The bidders had little option but to offer them.

Something must have gone awry in the planning process for the franchise, back in 2014. Either the DfT failed to consult adequately with the Network Rail timetable planners, or the latter failed to model the new timetable in sufficient detail and made rash promises about the feasibility of the proposed extra services.
 

Ianno87

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This appears to be yet another example of a new or enhanced service, originally promised for the much delayed December 2017 timetable, which has collided with the reality of inadequate infrastructure that cannot provide appropriate paths. Northern gets the flak, but it was the DfT and Rail North that originally specified the new services in the franchise ITT. The bidders had little option but to offer them.

Something must have gone awry in the planning process for the franchise, back in 2014. Either the DfT failed to consult adequately with the Network Rail timetable planners, or the latter failed to model the new timetable in sufficient detail and made rash promises about the feasibility of the proposed extra services.

I can also imagine a lot of the early timetable planning was also based on the assumption Piccadilly 15/16 would be available...
 

Greybeard33

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I can also imagine a lot of the early timetable planning was also based on the assumption Piccadilly 15/16 would be available...
I believe that P15/16 were only assumed to be available from December 2019. The Chester - Leeds service was in December 2017 TSRs of the ITT.
 

Andyh82

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Between Victoria and Chester 2 cars are fine for now but it will need more capacity in the long term.
As a new service, i'd suggest its better placed to receive 2 car 195s than an existing service, so it may remain 2 car in the medium term
 

Geeves

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Majority of the trains towards Chester are 3 cars sometimes 4. Also there is a another train to Manchester to Chester in the form of TfWs own services providing another 2, 3 or 5 carriages. Also there is the slow way via Northwich. As for the Halifax to Leeds section it has 4 trains an hour admittedly 3 of them are with in 15 mins of each other but still its a pretty good bet for a seat for at least 15 mins of each hour!
 

geoffk

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I used this service today for the first time (0950 Rochdale to Chester). We left Victoria with 18 on a 2-car 158. There seemed to be slack in the timetable as we waited four minutes at Newton-le-Willows and three at Warrington. Leaving Bank Quay, we took what I thought was a freight line via Walton Old Junction - I don't remember going that way on the ATW (now TfW) service. Later I used the 1420 from Chester as far as Warrington and this was a 156.
 

158756

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I used this service today for the first time (0950 Rochdale to Chester). We left Victoria with 18 on a 2-car 158. There seemed to be slack in the timetable as we waited four minutes at Newton-le-Willows and three at Warrington. Leaving Bank Quay, we took what I thought was a freight line via Walton Old Junction - I don't remember going that way on the ATW (now TfW) service. Later I used the 1420 from Chester as far as Warrington and this was a 156.

The slack in the timetable is an allowance of 7 minutes which looks like it's to allow a London service to go ahead at Winwick Jn. You didn't need it there today because the London train was late.
 

absolutelymilk

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I'm sat on the 6.17 from Chester, which is a 153+150. Got the 153 all to myself so far!

It got significantly more busy later, meaning the seats were about half-filled by Newton-le-willows.

My connection at NLW was cancelled, so had to get on the TfW service to Picadilly which (despite being only two carriages and picking up everyone from the cancelled service) just about squeezed everyone on. Is this a sign that the new Leeds service is starting to relieve the crush on the TfW service slightly?
 
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Welshman

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I used this service today for the first time (0950 Rochdale to Chester). We left Victoria with 18 on a 2-car 158. There seemed to be slack in the timetable as we waited four minutes at Newton-le-Willows and three at Warrington, Leaving Bank Quay, we took what I thought was a freight line via Walton Old Junction - I don't remember going that way on the ATW (now TfW) service. Later I used the 1420 from Chester as far as Warrington and this was a 156.

Most of the ATW and now TfW services I've used from Piccadilly to the N. Wales Coast have used the slow lines via Walton Old Junction. They've switched to the reversible line at Winwick Junction, and then kept the up fast clear for any Virgin trains to pass.

In the reverse direction, trains I've used from North Wales have usually crossed to the down main line at Acton Grange and I very rarely get to travel the slow line to Warrington. However, the Northern service from Chester to Leeds at 1023 I sampled recently went down the slow line [no apparent reason why - nothing overtook on the down main], and then crossed extremely slowly over the main lines to platform 4 at Bank Quay, holding the station starter at danger against an up pendolino in the process!
 

geoffk

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Most of the ATW and now TfW services I've used from Piccadilly to the N. Wales Coast have used the slow lines via Walton Old Junction. They've switched to the reversible line at Winwick Junction, and then kept the up fast clear for any Virgin trains to pass.

In the reverse direction, trains I've used from North Wales have usually crossed to the down main line at Acton Grange and I very rarely get to travel the slow line to Warrington. However, the Northern service from Chester to Leeds at 1023 I sampled recently went down the slow line [no apparent reason why - nothing overtook on the down main], and then crossed extremely slowly over the main lines to platform 4 at Bank Quay, holding the station starter at danger against an up pendolino in the process!
Thanks for the explanation. I suppose drivers of both companies need to maintain route knowledge of the slow lines in both directions. Was that the reason?
 

darloscott

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There are 9 diagrams on the Leeds-Chester/Victoria services... seems to be very much a mix of 142/150/153/156/158 across the board.
They do get about mind... the morning Ellesmere Port unit seems to get to Knottingley late on for example, this should be a 156 I believe.
 

Eccles1983

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You sign all running lines, not just slow or fast on a route.

Unless you contact the signaller prior to getting there then you are at the whims of him/her to put you on any suitable line. Sometimes the signaller wants a set of points working or pway want access to specific lines.

Route retention is not the reason this happened. I hardly ever used the fast lines in and out of Piccadilly, but I would be laughed out of town if I tried to request a route refresh because I hadn't.
 

Bikeman78

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Most of the ATW and now TfW services I've used from Piccadilly to the N. Wales Coast have used the slow lines via Walton Old Junction. They've switched to the reversible line at Winwick Junction, and then kept the up fast clear for any Virgin trains to pass.

A few TFW trains are booked via Walton Old Jn, e.g. 1H89, 1H90, 1H91 and 1H93. You can see them on realtime trains. The majority cross to the fast line at Acton Grange Jn. Most of the Chester to Leeds and vice versa are booked via Walton Old Jn.
 
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We had an additional stop at Earlestown this morning on the 0729 from Helsby. An error I'm sure unless something timetablewise has changed. No-one got on or off as far as I could see.
 

Llama

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Probably held at the signal protecting Earlestown East Jn while a late running Crewe-Liverpool train passed, from what I can see.
 

Ianno87

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Probably held at the signal protecting Earlestown East Jn while a late running Crewe-Liverpool train passed, from what I can see.

Not sure the overlap of the signal permits drawing into the platform with a train passing on the 'main' line?
 

northernchris

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There are 9 diagrams on the Leeds-Chester/Victoria services... seems to be very much a mix of 142/150/153/156/158 across the board.
They do get about mind... the morning Ellesmere Port unit seems to get to Knottingley late on for example, this should be a 156 I believe.

142s don't seem to be booked on the Chester/ Victoria services but do turn up! I've noticed there's a lot of splitting and attaching which goes on now to ensure the capacity is in the right place at the peaks
 

Bovverboy

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Probably held at the signal protecting Earlestown East Jn while a late running Crewe-Liverpool train passed, from what I can see.

Doors were opened.

I am sure that when I checked RTT sometime yesterday it was showing 1E52 as having called at Earlestown but it now appears to have been 'amended' to show it as having passed without stopping. However that isn't consistent with it having taken a minute and a quarter to cover the 0m09ch from Earlestown South Junction to Earlestown, or two and three-quarter minutes to travel Earlestown to Newton-le-Willows (scheduled time two minutes).
 
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