New Class 93 (not IC250)

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by CosherB, 29 Aug 2018.

  1. Photohunter71

    Photohunter71 Member

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    Well, from what was proposed, it looks like R.O.G will be using the 93's for freight and passenger use and R.O.G is looking at setting up subsidiary railfreight and passenger companies due to reserved TOPS number to 93 050. I look forward to further news on this. Not too much longer until DRS unveil their new Diesel fleet plans!
     
  2. Class455

    Class455 Member

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    When I first saw ROG were getting these, I would have thought that these would be used to replace its existing fleet to haul multiple units, will they be used for this purpose at all?
     
  3. Photohunter71

    Photohunter71 Member

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    I suspect they will. It will be interesting to see just how this unfolds.
     
  4. ABB125

    ABB125 Member

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    Flicking through the latest copy of RAIL today I saw that Karl Watts (?) of ROG has said that class 93s feature in two franchise bids. The only franchise I can think of that may be suitable is East Midlands. (I would also suggest CrossCountry but that franchise competition has now been cancelled.) Does anyone have any idea who else might be interested?
     
  5. gazthomas

    gazthomas Established Member

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    While I like a buoyant market, and I wish them every success I hope ROG don't over stretch themselves and become another FM or Cotswold Rail.
     
  6. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    Could be two separate bidders for the same franchise.
     
  7. Photohunter71

    Photohunter71 Member

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    Would be good to have them up here in Edinburgh. Maybe one day!
     
  8. InTheEastMids

    InTheEastMids Member

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    Which route in the East Mids? For the inter city services isn't the requirement to match a 222 on diesel?
    I think that means (very) roughly double heading/top and tail 3000hp on diesel, with presumably fewer powered axles.

    Are there any other parts of the next East Mids franchise with enough electric running to make a bimode locomotive worthwhile?
     
  9. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

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    Well, St. Pancras to Kettering/Corby (and perhaps Market Harborough) is one stretch; the stretch due to be upgraded as part of HS2 Phase 2 through Chesterfield & Sheffield is another.
    The latter route would also be useful for CrossCountry services...
     
  10. gingertom

    gingertom Member

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    I think the design 110mph top speed of this new loco kind of rules it out for use on the MML.
     
  11. InTheEastMids

    InTheEastMids Member

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    I wasn't very clear at communicating what I was thinking. I'm very well aware of the MML electrification. My logic is this
    1. To match a 9x222 on diesel, an 8-9 car train is going to need maybe >6000 hp on diesel
    2. This suggests 2 locos of 3000hp on diesel presumably top and tail like an HST, and maybe >4000hp on electric.

    Now, both 68 and 88 weigh ~85t so the 93 would probably be >90t... So, compared to an 80x
    - with fewer powered axles would it struggle to match performance
    - axle loadings might mean track access charges were much higher for >100mph running
    - loss of passenger space by giving over 40-ish meters to the locos
    - loss of flexibility compared to MUs, eg the Nottingham off peak fasts do not need a 2+8 HST,
     
  12. squizzler

    squizzler Member

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    As a bit of a wildcard, do you suppose Talgo might be in the running to build the passenger coaches? They have been looking to break into the UK market all ready for the HS2 tenders, and their passenger stock might have something to offer. It is very lightweight because it dispenses with the bogies and solid axles, so the performance penalty of going with hauled stock versus multiple unit ought to reduced.

    What really prompted me to speculate is that DB have just selected the Talgo system for their next tranche of loco hauled intercity trains. Unlike many Talgo purchases this decision is on their merits as standard gauge stock, not for their gauge changing capability.
     
  13. ABB125

    ABB125 Member

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    Interesting idea, but again, who would be the likely operators? Like I said, a class 93 + coaches would fit (although not necessarily be ideal for) the CrossCountry franchise, which has now been cancelled.
    Although it has just occurred to me that these may be of interest to the West Coast Partnership to reduce voyager under the wires miles, perhaps on the Chester and Holyhead route.
     
  14. Richard Scott

    Richard Scott Member

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    Anyone any ideas which diesel engine is planned to be used?
     
  15. Suraggu

    Suraggu Member

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    V12 C175 it's believed.
     
  16. Photohunter71

    Photohunter71 Member

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    Just a bit of wishful thinking on my part, but It would be great to have them on a Glasgow Central - Newcastle via the South Suburban loop, although I know it means running through Millerhill yard to the south at wanton walls junction then onto the ECML. But it would be great for an Edinburgh- Carlisle or Edinburgh-Preston / Edinburgh - Liverpool run. Anyway, back to reality, it will be interesting to see where they are deployed.
     
  17. squizzler

    squizzler Member

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    The advantage of Talgo in the applications we have mentioned is that they have passive tilt so could perhaps be a bit quicker than regular stock on twisty WCML and MML routes. Again, this might, in addition to their crisp packet weight, help reduce the perceived disadvantages of hauled stock. They are of course not going to be as fast as the Pendolinos which have active tilt.
     
  18. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    The piece in 'Modern Railways' February edition (page 37) about the 93's suggests it will be 900kW diesel plus 400kW battery (or 4000kW on 25kV OHLE). The C175-12 is rather more powerful than 900kW (it's around 2000kW), so I'd expect a different, smaller Cat diesel engine.

    Basically class 37 performance level on diesel+battery power, and class 88 level on 25kV overhead.
     
    Last edited: 8 Feb 2019
  19. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    From that it sounds like the same engine as the Class 88, but with added battery power.

    I’m still not seeing what the potential passenger use for these away from the wires is - the rating is too low and the battery power too limited to be of much use. And that’s before you take into account the requirements for train supply.
     
  20. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    I agree - with most of the 'extensions beyond the wires' situations covered by the IET-derived fleets already (and other bi-mode MUs like the Flirts), there aren't many 'niches' left to fill (ones that would make any commercial/operating sense, anyway).

    Euston - North Wales coast/Barrow/Windermere/Dumfries just possibly maybe (but that means pathing 100-110 mph stock on the WCML).
     
    Last edited: 8 Feb 2019
  21. angryskipfan

    angryskipfan Member

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    For class 93 reading between the lines of the press statements, where a bigger cooler group and 0.5 MW LTO battery pack mentioned, I’d speculate that a higher power CAT C32 is likely to be the engine of choice as space and mass is highly limited.

    This V12 is rated between 600 – 1800 BHP application dependent and importantly , weights the same 3 T as the Cat C27 used in the class 88. The class 93 designers will have to manage mass very carefully to achieve the same RA as the other locos is the family but it looks do-able.


    To give the claimed Type 4 power output at Rail, the Cat C32 would need to be rated at approx. 1.06 MW (1422 BHP) and is likely within the range of the C32.

    The LTO battery gives an additional 0.4 MW power boost, giving a total power at rail of 1.3 MW (1747 HP).

    This is indeed similar to a typical Class 47 or HST power car power at rail and is required for the type 4 rating claimed, but with significantly higher starting TE!

    I think the hybrid approach is a smart one as the LTO battery provides a power boost for acceleration and can be recharged when braking or by engine when power not required. This peak lopping gives the diesel a nice steady load with less sawtooth temp cycling common on large rail loco engines improving reliability. There is also the very real possibility that higher power LTO batteries may be available in the future that have the same mass and space requirements giving a significant power boost available as a retrofit package. Interesting times ahead based upon advances on battery technology!

    I have used typical assumptions for AC drive + Ac motors, AC alternator + DC motors and DC generator- DC motor efficiency and not included any ETH load, which would not be required on freight or could be mitigated with load management when high acceleration required.

    Ive compiled a table comparing typical mixed traffic UK locos and based the figures on common domain info.

    upload_2019-2-11_11-17-25.png
     
  22. themiller

    themiller Member

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    I may have missed it but do we know whether the 93’s going to be 4 or 6 axle, yet? I understand that the picture has only been for demonstration of the proposed livery.
     
  23. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    It's based on the 4-axle Class 88 design.

    Quote from RAIL magazine - https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...s-fuels-its-ambitions-with-tri-mode-class-93s :

     
    Last edited: 11 Feb 2019
  24. angryskipfan

    angryskipfan Member

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    I believe is a 4 axle design based upon class 88/68 Eurolight platform. Reason being the platform has already been approved so approval process would be quicker see rail Jan 30 - Feb 12th Page 66.
    Karl Watts (ROG director) recons 2 years from order placement to delivery/service vs 4 years+ for a new platform (6 axle Eurodual) which would need to be re-engineered to be compliant to UK loading gauge. The 6 axle Eurodual may be needed for a future heavy haul hybrid but this is in the future and there would be considerable up front engineering costs so a significant application would be needed. There are plenty of 6 axle heavy haul diesels kicking around in the UK for now.
     
  25. themiller

    themiller Member

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    That's my point. It's based on the UKlight platform but it could still have 6 wheel bogies. As for the 6 axle heavy haul diesels, they're not electric and the improved environmental credentials of an electric is a big selling point now and into the future as companies try to improve their environmental performance.
     
  26. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    We do have some 6-axle electric locos - the class 92...

    From what they've said in the press, ROG are not really interested in the heavy freight market - 'fast freight', passenger and rolling stock movements seem to be what they are interested in - perfect for the class 93 design. A Co-Co design would just make it more expensive to buy and maintain with no real benefits. For them, it's a tri-mode class 37/47 replacement loco.
     
  27. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    We don't have any 6-axle electrics with last-mile capability though, which would be the main factor determining whether a loco is truly successful in today's railway.
     
  28. Photohunter71

    Photohunter71 Member

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    The table a few posts above suggests an RA of 7 where RA5 or RA6 would have been ideal for this locomotive and methinks it will be a bit on the lardy side for a B0-Bo with extra equipment, therefore although based on the 68/88 platform, will it be a Co-Co wheelset?
     
  29. Charlie Smythe

    Charlie Smythe On Moderation

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    I can't imagine that it would be a Co-Co design seeing as they said that it will be based on the 68/88 design. Although i do see your point about it being heavy.
     
  30. Photohunter71

    Photohunter71 Member

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    It has to be a Co-Co arrangement or else it'll be a porker like the 67's!
     

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