New Cross Gate to Thorpe Bay (RG query)

[Ivo]

Hey guys,

Bit of routeing for you all to look at.

I've been alerted to an interesting split (by a certain someone on this forum; thank you for this!) for my route home from Bath to Southend which necessitates travelling via New Cross Gate. The problem is that the cheapest option from NXG to TPB is routed Upminster, which is fair enough, but lacks the Maltese Cross.

Having consulted the Routeing Guide, I find that NXG - TPB is valid on routes via London. This is all very well, but the route in question does not appear to permit the use of LUL. So would I thus be required to travel to between London Bridge and Fenchurch Street (I may chance Liverpool Street because I haven't been on the Emerson Park line for a while) by bus? The obvious alternative route ignores London (LOROL to Stratford via Dalston) and seems rather out-of-the-way.

I may yet not take up this option, if the currently available AP @ £17 w/YP stays as present and I can borrow some funds until Tuesday to pay for this (I will receive more than enough on Tuesday), but if it does become necessary any thoughts would be appreciated.

TIA

 

[RJ]

Hey guys,

Bit of routeing for you all to look at.

I've been alerted to an interesting split (by a certain someone on this forum; thank you for this!) for my route home from Bath to Southend which necessitates travelling via New Cross Gate. The problem is that the cheapest option from NXG to TPB is routed Upminster, which is fair enough, but lacks the Maltese Cross.

Having consulted the Routeing Guide, I find that NXG - TPB is valid on routes via London. This is all very well, but the route in question does not appear to permit the use of LUL. So would I thus be required to travel to between London Bridge and Fenchurch Street (I may chance Liverpool Street because I haven't been on the Emerson Park line for a while) by bus? The obvious alternative route ignores London (LOROL to Stratford via Dalston) and seems rather out-of-the-way.

I may yet not take up this option, if the currently available AP @ £17 w/YP stays as present and I can borrow some funds until Tuesday to pay for this (I will receive more than enough on Tuesday), but if it does become necessary any thoughts would be appreciated.

TIA

If London is shown as a permitted route, then the ticket includes the cost of Cross London transfer.

 

[Ivo]

If London is shown as a permitted route, then the ticket includes the cost of Cross London transfer.

That's what I thought. But where the cross is not shown I wasn't sure if LUL was permitted?

 

[OwlMan]

If London is shown as a permitted route, then the ticket includes the cost of Cross London transfer.

There is also an a +any permitted flow

 

[Ivo]

There is also an a +any permitted ticket

There is, but that costs roughly double the other one! I don't want to pay that if it only saves me a journey on the RV1 bus!

...oops, sorry, didn't realise that wasn't aimed at me. My bad

 

[OwlMan]

There is, but that costs roughly double the other one! I don't want to pay that if it only saves me a journey on the RV1 bus!

...oops, sorry, didn't realise that wasn't aimed at me. My bad

I can not see where you are meant to go. It looks like a ticket introduced since the opening of the ELL and probably introduced in error (there is no similar ticket from other nearby station (including the main station of the cluster Forest Hill. There is also no equivqlent in the reverse direction

 

[clagmonster]

The shortest route is:
New Cross Gate-London Bridge 2.75 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec11/timetables/Table178.pdf
London Bridge-Upminster (LUL) 0 miles
Upminster-Laindon-Thorpe Bay 22.75 miles http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec11/timetables/Table1.pdf
Total 25.5 miles

New Cross Gate is a routeing point.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 43

Thorpe Bay is a related station to the Southend Group.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 60

The only routing permission for New Cross Gate to the Southen Group is London.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 673


Routeing Permissions for New Cross Gate - London Group are: LB and SC.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 672

Map LB allows New Cross Gate to London Bridge as you desire.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf page 57

Routeing permissions for London Group to Southern Group are: EA and TS.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 605

Your proposed route direct out of Fenchurch Street is permitted by map TS.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf page 108

The Routeing Guide states:
"If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London
transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases
the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the
‘permitted route’ map combinations."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf page 4

This paragraph covers you for an Underground transfer in the cost of your ticket. If you wish to transfer by bus, you will have to pay the bus fare.

Your proposed routes via Emmerson Park and Dalston are not valid. They are not mapped and are more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

 

[Ivo]

Your proposed routes via Emmerson Park and Dalston are not valid. They are not mapped and are more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

I never seriously suggested Dalston! But not including LUL, it is the shortest route out there! I fail to see why Emerson Park shouldn't be valid though, assuming I go via Liverpool Street.

 

[clagmonster]

I never seriously suggested Dalston! But not including LUL, it is the shortest route out there! I fail to see why Emerson Park shouldn't be valid though, assuming I go via Liverpool Street.

It's not mapped, isn't the shortest route and isn't a direct train.

I believe LUL transfers are set to zero when calculating the shortest route, so for anything involving Southend the shortest route is always going to be Upminster to the District Line.

 

[OwlMan]

It's not mapped, isn't the shortest route and isn't a direct train.

I believe LUL transfers are set to zero when calculating the shortest route, so for anything involving Southend the shortest route is always going to be Upminster to the District Line.

No LU transfers are nil when it is not a joint route (where tickets are interavailable with NR.) West Ham - Upminster is a joint route and the mileage should count.
Otherwise you get really silly calculations for shortest route to London from places like Romford.

How about New Cross Gate - Shadwell
Shadwell - Limehouse (DLR) (Tower Gateway to Limehouse is interchangable between DLR & NR)
C2C limehouse onwards

Peter

 

[RJ]

There is also an a +any permitted flow

Irrelevant .

 

[clagmonster]

No LU transfers are nil when it is not a joint route (where tickets are interavailable with NR.) West Ham - Upminster is a joint route and the mileage should count.
Otherwise you get really silly calculations for shortest route to London from places like Romford.

How about New Cross Gate - Shadwell
Shadwell - Limehouse (DLR) (Tower Gateway to Limehouse is interchangable between DLR & NR)
C2C limehouse onwards

Peter

Is Upminster (or maybe Barking) on the list of BR-LUL interchange stations for the purpose of transfers though? If so, then it is valid for two reasons and for the purpose of calculating the shortest route, it would be zero when used as part of a transfer.

When it is a ticket for which London is not a routeing permission, so can't possibly be a transfer, then I agree that the mileage counts towards the shortest route calculation. So the shortest London Terminals-Romford route would be direct out of the Street.

 

[OwlMan]

Is Upminster (or maybe Barking) on the list of BR-LUL interchange stations for the purpose of transfers though? If so, then it is valid for two reasons and for the purpose of calculating the shortest route, it would be zero when used as part of a transfer.

When it is a ticket for which London is not a routeing permission, so can't possibly be a transfer, then I agree that the mileage counts towards the shortest route calculation. So the shortest London Terminals-Romford route would be direct out of the Street.

New Cross Gate - Canada Water the LU to West Ham & Upminster is actually the shortest route (whether you count LU between West Ham & Upminster or not (although via London Bridge is within 3 miles.)