New diesel stock

[PaulHarding150]

Transport for Wales are about to order brand new diesel stock for Mid Wales and services from South Wales to Manchester/Liverpool.

Is any other franchise having brand new diesel stock built for them?

 

[Mag_seven]

Transport for Wales are about to order brand new diesel stock for Mid Wales and services from South Wales to Manchester/Liverpool.

Is any other franchise having brand new diesel stock built for them?

Northern Class 195.

EDIT: You could also add in Class 800 bi modes (GWR, LNER, TPE) while not pure diesel as such they do have a diesel mode.

 

[mallard]

Northern (Cl195), WMT (Cl196). Many of GA's Cl755 bi-modes will spend virtually all their time on diesel power.

 

[TheGrew]

West Midlands Trains Class 196

 

[Cardiff123]

Transport for Wales are about to order brand new diesel stock for Mid Wales and services from South Wales to Manchester/Liverpool.

Is any other franchise having brand new diesel stock built for them?

Don't forget as well as the CAF DMU's which I assume you're referring to, there's the Stadler Flirt DEMU's for 'South Wales Metro' services ranging from Maesteg in the west to Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham/Gloucester in the east. And of course there's the Stadler Flirt overhead electric/battery/diesel hybrids for the Rhymney and VoG lines.

 

[tomos dafis]

Transport for Wales are about to order brand new diesel stock for Mid Wales and services from South Wales to Manchester/Liverpool.

Is any other franchise having brand new diesel stock built for them?

Do you have a reliable source that the order from TFW for CAF DMU's is going to be formally announced? We have known since June that CAF are preferred bidders but so far no formal confirmation of a firm order with finance in place.

 

[PHILIPE]

Do you have a reliable source that the order from TFW for CAF DMU's is going to be formally announced? We have known since June that CAF are preferred bidders but so far no formal confirmation of a firm order with finance in place.

Mentioned that nothing signed off in Decemer:=

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keolis-amey-wales-future-rolling-stock.164954/page-41 Post 1219

 

[Cardiff123]

I'd be amazed if CAF don't eventually get the order though after Welsh Govt went out of their way to lure CAF into building their new factory in Newport

 

[tomos dafis]

Mentioned that nothing signed off in Decemer:=

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keolis-amey-wales-future-rolling-stock.164954/page-41 Post 1219

Absolutely, just thought I might have missed somewhere that confirmation was imminent.

 

[tomos dafis]

I'd be amazed if CAF don't eventually get the order though after Welsh Govt went out of their way to lure CAF into building their new factory in Newport

Agreed, I was just wondering whether there are more difficulties with financing the order than had been envisaged.

 

[Erniescooper]

Agreed, I was just wondering whether there are more difficulties with financing the order than had been envisaged.

I don’t know why there hasn’t been an announcement but I had been told it was signed the week before Christmas, the Rosco is SMBC.

 

[tomos dafis]

Thanks for that.

 

[Cardiff123]

Deleted

 

[bnsf734]

I don’t know why there hasn’t been an announcement but I had been told it was signed the week before Christmas, the Rosco is SMBC.

A quick google tells me that SMBC stands for:

Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal or
Solihull Metropolitan Borough Council or more likely
Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation

 

[Jozhua]

Do new diesels bring a reasonable upgrade on some of the older units running currently? I'm guessing some of the lower emissions, faster journey times and cheaper running costs of electrification can somewhat be provided by new units?

How much cheaper are they to run and how well do they accelerate compared to say 150/156/158? (Let's not compare to pacers because that's just unfair

 

[mallard]

How much cheaper are they to run and how well do they accelerate compared to say 150/156/158?

There doesn't appear to be much (public) data around yet, but it's known that the Cl195 has a 523hp engine per car while no other "Sprinter-class" unit has more than the 422hp of the 168s/170s. No "Sprinter-class" unit weighs more than ~45t per car, so it's unlikely that the 195s will be any heavier than that. Based on those figures, performance should be a bit better than a 170, probably at least on a par with existing 75mph units while having the 100mph top speed.

 

[swt class 450]

I imagine that South Western Railway will need some new DMUs soon to replace their 158s and 159s in their fleet. These trains are getting very old now and probably don't have too much longer in service. Although i haven't heard anything about new trains being ordered so perhaps it could be a while.

 

[sprinterguy]

I imagine that South Western Railway will need some new DMUs soon to replace their 158s and 159s in their fleet. These trains are getting very old now and probably don't have too much longer in service. Although i haven't heard anything about new trains being ordered so perhaps it could be a while.

As far as I am aware there are no plans to replace the 158s and 159s with South Western Railway during the course of the current franchise up to 2024. That'll be a consideration for the successor franchise, so replacement unlikely before 2026/27 at the earliest.

The 158s and 159s with SWR are slightly younger, and significantly more reliable, than the majority of the Sprinter fleets expected to remain in service for some years to come in many other areas of the country.

 

[swt class 450]

That's interesting to hear. I don't think the passengers will be happy at that decision. Even at the moment they are looking quite worn out with lots of broken bits. Even if they are well maintained and reliable i imagine they will be well worn out and in poor condition by 2026 or 2027 time.

 

[sprinterguy]

That's interesting to hear. I don't think the passengers will be happy at that decision. Even at the moment they are looking quite worn out with lots of broken bits. Even if they are well maintained and reliable i imagine they will be well worn out and in poor condition by 2026 or 2027 time.

Reliability of the fleets has tumbled under the auspices of South Western Railway: The general view is that maintenance isn't being managed as effectively as it was by South West Trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

I believe that most have been mentioned in some capacity above, but just for completeness:

Transpennine Express: 13 x Class 68+5-car CAF Mark 5 rakes (Deliveries commenced 2018)
Northern: 25 x 2-car CAF Civity Class 195 (Deliveries commenced 2018)
Northern: 33 x 3-car CAF Civity Class 195 (Deliveries commenced 2018, additional 3 units ordered 11/2018)
West Midlands Trains: 12 x 2-car CAF Civity Class 196 (Into service by 12/2020)
West Midlands Trains: 14 x 4-car CAF Civity Class 196 (Into service by 12/2020)
Transport for Wales: 51 x 2-car CAF Civity (Into service Q3 2021 – Q1 2023)
Transport for Wales: 26 x 3-car CAF Civity (Into service Q3 2021 – Q1 2023)

As well as dual mode units that'll probably spend reasonable amounts of time on diesel power:
Transport for Wales: 7 x 3-car Tri-mode Stadler FLIRT (Into service Q1 2021 – Q4 2023, for Rhymney/Coryton - Penarth/Barry Island)
Transport for Wales: 17 x 4-car Tri-mode Stadler FLIRT (Into service Q1 2021 – Q4 2023, for Rhymney/Coryton - Penarth/Barry Island)
Transport for Wales: 11 x 4-car Bi-mode Stadler FLIRT (Into service Q2 2022 – Q1 2023, for Maesteg – Cardiff – Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham)
Greater Anglia: 14 x 3-car Bi-mode Stadler FLIRT Class 755
Greater Anglia: 24 x 4-car Bi-mode Stadler FLIRT Class 755 (Deliveries commenced late 2018)

And for absolute completeness, if you’re including the Hitachi Class 800s and 802s (I’ll exclude the 801s as they only have one diesel engine purely intended to provde ‘limp home’ capability):
GWR: 36 x 5-car Class 800/0 (All delivered and in service)
LNER: 13 x 9-car Class 800/1
LNER: 10 x 5-car Class 800/2
GWR: 21 x 9-car Class 800/3 (Ordered as electric only class 801/0, all now delivered as 800/3s)

GWR: 22 x 5-car Class 802/0 (Deliveries ongoing)
GWR: 14 x 9-car Class 802/1 (Deliveries ongoing)
TPE: 19 x 5-car Class 802/2 (First 2 units undergoing testing)
Hull Trains: 5 x 5-car Class 802/3 (Due into service by 2020)

 

[talltim]

A quick google tells me that SMBC stands for:

Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal or
Solihull Metropolitan Borough Council or more likely
Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation

It is the third. They bought American Railcar Leasing last year. What I'm not sure is whether they are related to Mitsui who own a lot of rolling stock in Europe as MRCE

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Depending you your definition of "new" don't forget the 230s

 

[Mikey C]

That's interesting to hear. I don't think the passengers will be happy at that decision. Even at the moment they are looking quite worn out with lots of broken bits. Even if they are well maintained and reliable i imagine they will be well worn out and in poor condition by 2026 or 2027 time.

That's down to how well they're maintained. A refurbishment would sort out the interiors anyway

I imagine they'll be replaced by some sort of bimode

 

[Nym]

I believe that most have been mentioned in some capacity above, but just for completeness:

And for absolute completeness, if you’re including the Hitachi Class 800s and 802s (I’ll exclude the 801s as they only have one diesel engine purely intended to provde ‘limp home’ capability):
GWR: 36 x 5-car Class 800/0 (All delivered and in service)

GWR: 22 x 5-car Class 802/0 (Deliveries ongoing)
TPE: 19 x 5-car Class 802/2 (First 2 units undergoing testing)

(Snipped)

800 001 and 800 002 are still undergoing pantograph testing with DBST equipment. I beleive EMC testing is still also in progress on these units.

 

[sprinterguy]

(Snipped)

800 001 and 800 002 are still undergoing pantograph testing with DBST equipment. I beleive EMC testing is still also in progress on these units.

Ah, I did wonder about those two pre-series sets. Hadn't heard much about them recently so I assumed that they'd followed the rest into passenger service. Thanks for the correction.

 

[anamyd]

(Snipped)

800 001 and 800 002 are still undergoing pantograph testing with DBST equipment. I beleive EMC testing is still also in progress on these units.

Please explain DBST and EMC as per forum rules

 

[anamyd]

Transport for Wales: 51 x 2-car CAF Civity (Into service Q3 2021 – Q1 2023)
Transport for Wales: 26 x 3-car CAF Civity (Into service Q3 2021 – Q1 2023)

Aren't something like 46 of the 2-cars and the 26 3-cars entering service within those dates, with the remaining 5 or whatever 2-cars not entering service until 2024...?

 

[anamyd]

There doesn't appear to be much (public) data around yet, but it's known that the Cl195 has a 523hp engine per car while no other "Sprinter-class" unit has more than the 422hp of the 168s/170s. No "Sprinter-class" unit weighs more than ~45t per car, so it's unlikely that the 195s will be any heavier than that. Based on those figures, performance should be a bit better than a 170, probably at least on a par with existing 75mph units while having the 100mph top speed.

The Civity DMUs also have 6-speed ZF Ecolife Rail gearboxes (like 172s) which are more efficient than the hydraulic transmissions, in fact the engines are the same as in 172s (13 litre MTU 6Hs), just uprated from 480hp to 523hp and with aftertreated exhaust emissions

 

[3141]

That's interesting to hear. I don't think the passengers will be happy at that decision. Even at the moment they are looking quite worn out with lots of broken bits. Even if they are well maintained and reliable i imagine they will be well worn out and in poor condition by 2026 or 2027 time.

I'm a regular passenger on SWR's class 158s and 159s, and I'm entirely happy with them. I'm not aware of "lots of broken bits". The units are being refurbished and coming back with new upholstery and carpets as well as an external repaint. The decision not to replace them in the current franchise was in the franchise award which was announced nearly two years ago, and there's little evidence that the passengers aren't happy about it.