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New home for C2C class 387's

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RobShipway

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With the fact that C2C's class 720/6 units I believe are due to start services before the end and the short term lease that C2C has on the 387/3 units ends soon, it would make sense to me anyway, that they should go to GWR who have 3 of the units on loan currently.

But what are the thoughts of others as to the new home for the class 387/3 units?
 
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swt_passenger

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GN - it’s not exactly likely 6 units would go anywhere else, hasn’t it been a fairly regular recent subject of discussion, mainly in the 365 withdrawal context? GN are already borrowing 387s from GatEx, and I think it was assumed they’d be replaced by the C2C when released.

GWR is clearly temporary, what would they actually need 6 extras for in the medium term?
 

bramling

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GN - it’s not exactly likely 6 units would go anywhere else, hasn’t it been a fairly regular recent subject of discussion, mainly in the 365 withdrawal context? GN are already borrowing 387s from GatEx, and I think it was assumed they’d be replaced by the C2C when released.

GWR is clearly temporary, what would they actually need 6 extras for in the medium term?

What happens with GN will depend very much on what GTR choose to do overall with their fleet.

If the GN side sticks with 387s, they you could keep the 29x387/1s, add the 6x c2c units to make 35, and keep a further 13x 387/2s and that essentially matches what existed with the 365s. The 387/2s could then be replaced with 377/5s off Southeastern.

However it’s all very speculative, as there are other variables. Firstly whether peak passenger levels recover or whether a longer term reduction in stock is viable. But secondly what GTR choose to do with the 313 and 455 fleets - if anything.

Even taking into account a potential reduction in numbers, I don’t believe there are enough potential Electrostars to do away with the 313, 365 *and* 455 fleets, and this includes adding the 379s to the mix, at least not without quite a reduction in peak capacity.

So the answer is at the moment it’s too early to make firm guesses as to what might happen.

Personally I’d return the 365s to GN, bring the 379s to GN to replace the 387/1s, then throw every remaining Electrostar at Southern to replace the 313 and 455 fleets, but that’s one of numerous potential permutations, and of course I’m slightly biased as I like the 365s!
 

RobShipway

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What happens with GN will depend very much on what GTR choose to do overall with their fleet.

If the GN side sticks with 387s, they you could keep the 29x387/1s, add the 6x c2c units to make 35, and keep a further 13x 387/2s and that essentially matches what existed with the 365s. The 387/2s could then be replaced with 377/5s off Southeastern.

However it’s all very speculative, as there are other variables. Firstly whether peak passenger levels recover or whether a longer term reduction in stock is viable. But secondly what GTR choose to do with the 313 and 455 fleets - if anything.

Even taking into account a potential reduction in numbers, I don’t believe there are enough potential Electrostars to do away with the 313, 365 *and* 455 fleets, and this includes adding the 379s to the mix, at least not without quite a reduction in peak capacity.

So the answer is at the moment it’s too early to make firm guesses as to what might happen.

Personally I’d return the 365s to GN, bring the 379s to GN to replace the 387/1s, then throw every remaining Electrostar at Southern to replace the 313 and 455 fleets, but that’s one of numerous potential permutations, and of course I’m slightly biased as I like the 365s!
I have to agree with the last part about replacing class 313's, but that is only because I fed up with them being used on the local Seaford to Brighton services.
 

43096

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GN - it’s not exactly likely 6 units would go anywhere else, hasn’t it been a fairly regular recent subject of discussion, mainly in the 365 withdrawal context? GN are already borrowing 387s from GatEx, and I think it was assumed they’d be replaced by the C2C when released.

GWR is clearly temporary, what would they actually need 6 extras for in the medium term?
In a sane world Didcot-Oxford would be electrified with a few extra units needed for the extension.
 

RobShipway

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Not sure if it is true, but a comment on a Youtube video about Class 357 units that I read seems to suggest that those within GWR believe that the class 387 units they are borrowing from C2C will be theirs to keep on using past the end of the year when C2C's lease expires. If that is the case I wonder when or if the other three units will join them?
 

David Goddard

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It has been reported elsewhere that Oxford wiring is back on the agenda so they will need a few more for that, given that the original allocation is now working HX services. The six extra sets will be just right to extend the half hourly Didcot trains to Oxford. If this happens, they can be expected to be refitted to match the others, and then could they gain their originally intended identities of 387175-80??

As for everything else, future demand will be a big factor in what happens, particularly with peak provision, so additional sets on GN may not be needed, as may the 720s for C2C.
 

HST43257

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My question is, why get rid of 313s and 455s? Are they unreliable? If they’re reliable, what need is there to replace them? They serve their areas well I believe. I’d rather send free electrostars north, perhaps put batteries in a few for Winderemere and Barrow (if this is within the range).
 

Neptune

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I’d rather send free electrostars north, perhaps put batteries in a few for Winderemere and Barrow (if this is within the range).
No, just no. This has been discussed many times and the reasons why it won’t and shouldn’t happen. Why the obsession with messing up Northern’s fleet with electrostars. They are not needed up here for anything anywhere.
 

CBlue

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No, just no. This has been discussed many times and the reasons why it won’t and shouldn’t happen. Why the obsession with messing up Northern’s fleet with electrostars. They are not needed up here for anything anywhere.
Every TOC should have a microfleet, apparently!
 

Failed Unit

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What happens with GN will depend very much on what GTR choose to do overall with their fleet.

If the GN side sticks with 387s, they you could keep the 29x387/1s, add the 6x c2c units to make 35, and keep a further 13x 387/2s and that essentially matches what existed with the 365s. The 387/2s could then be replaced with 377/5s off Southeastern.

However it’s all very speculative, as there are other variables. Firstly whether peak passenger levels recover or whether a longer term reduction in stock is viable. But secondly what GTR choose to do with the 313 and 455 fleets - if anything.

Even taking into account a potential reduction in numbers, I don’t believe there are enough potential Electrostars to do away with the 313, 365 *and* 455 fleets, and this includes adding the 379s to the mix, at least not without quite a reduction in peak capacity.

So the answer is at the moment it’s too early to make firm guesses as to what might happen.

Personally I’d return the 365s to GN, bring the 379s to GN to replace the 387/1s, then throw every remaining Electrostar at Southern to replace the 313 and 455 fleets, but that’s one of numerous potential permutations, and of course I’m slightly biased as I like the 365s!
The 707s could be a fit for Gatwick Express, they are used to the class on GTR and they don't need to be dual voltage (nor do the 387s of course) but if the Gatwick Express returns then refurbished 707s could work. Personally I think the Gatwick Express is gone, unless they drop the premium to get people alway from the cheaper (and not much slower) Southern trains. Bring back the 442s ;)
 

JonathanH

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The 707s could be a fit for Gatwick Express, they are used to the class on GTR and they don't need to be dual voltage (nor do the 387s of course) but if the Gatwick Express returns then refurbished 707s could work. Personally I think the Gatwick Express is gone, unless they drop the premium to get people alway from the cheaper (and not much slower) Southern trains. Bring back the 442s ;)
Where do they even come into consideration of what happens to the 6 C2C 387s? They are committed to Southeastern.
 

HST43257

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No, just no. This has been discussed many times and the reasons why it won’t and shouldn’t happen. Why the obsession with messing up Northern’s fleet with electrostars. They are not needed up here for anything anywhere.
I don’t see them being needed down south either, unless there were more dual voltage lines. Send them north as we get more wired
 

JonathanH

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I don’t see them being needed down south either, unless there were more dual voltage lines. Send them north as we get more wired
The benefits to Southern of having an electric fleet entirely composed of the 377s including the 377/5 fleet and ditching the 313s and 455s are considerable, but I am not quite sure how the 387/3s could be seen as part of that.
 

bramling

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My question is, why get rid of 313s and 455s? Are they unreliable? If they’re reliable, what need is there to replace them? They serve their areas well I believe. I’d rather send free electrostars north, perhaps put batteries in a few for Winderemere and Barrow (if this is within the range).

The 313s are well over 40 years old, and not massively popular with users on the routes they work. The 455s are a bit newer but slow accelerating. They’re both DC-motored, and thus quite maintenance intensive.

I wouldn’t say there’s an urgent need to replace them, but it’s remiss to be binning mid-life 365s but at the same time end-of-life units are still running.
 

HST43257

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The 313s are well over 40 years old, and not massively popular with users on the routes they work. The 455s are a bit newer but slow accelerating. They’re both DC-motored, and thus quite maintenance intensive.

I wouldn’t say there’s an urgent need to replace them, but it’s remiss to be binning mid-life 365s but at the same time end-of-life units are still running.
I mean 365s shouldn’t have gone in the first place

The benefits to Southern of having an electric fleet entirely composed of the 377s including the 377/5 fleet and ditching the 313s and 455s are considerable, but I am not quite sure how the 387/3s could be seen as part of that.
313s aren’t exactly a microfleet, and are well suited to coastway work imo.

I just feel like 313s and 455s aren’t ready to go yet, and any new wires coming along can have 387 and 379s operating under them. Same goes for 350s. Just because we have an EMU surplus, doesn’t mean we should get rid of things not ready to get rid of.
 

Neptune

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I don’t see them being needed down south either, unless there were more dual voltage lines. Send them north as we get more wired
I’ve said it before and will say it again. Units going off lease are not Northern’s problem, they are the leasing company’s.

If northern do get anymore EMU’s they will be 331’s, it has been said so many times that Northern are after a homogeneous fleet, the last thing any of us need is yet another class of unit ‘just because nobody else wants them’. Do you have any idea of costs (training etc….) adding yet another fleet incurs?
 

JonathanH

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Try reading the post that I was replying to? But I didn't know the whole 707 class was committed to Southeastern
Sorry - I guess I was taking 707s to Southeastern to be well understood now as it is actually in progress (although I note that they weren't mentioned by 'Bramling' and your purpose was to identify a 'backfill' for the release of 387/2s).
 

Failed Unit

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Sorry - I guess I was taking 707s to Southeastern to be well understood now as it is actually in progress (although I note that they weren't mentioned by 'Bramling' and your purpose was to identify a 'backfill' for the release of 387/2s).
One for a different thread, but I suspect that probably will be high up on the new rail organization. We have a lot of nearly new trains in storage at the moment, which is Crazy. I wonder how long it will be before we need to see a 12 car 387 on GN. The C2C ones may not be needed on any franchise for a while..
 

bramling

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The benefits to Southern of having an electric fleet entirely composed of the 377s including the 377/5 fleet and ditching the 313s and 455s are considerable, but I am not quite sure how the 387/3s could be seen as part of that.

They could presumably be part of that if the GN 387/1s get replaced by 379s, then you could conceivably send the 377/5s, GN + c2c 387s to Southern, which would just about see off the 313 and 455 fleets.

23 + 29 + 6 = 58 which isn’t too far short of the 313 and 455 fleet size. There’s also a couple of earlier 377s with SE I believe.

As I’ve said before, however, this leaves GN well short of what they had pre-Covid.

The other issue is making the assumption that SE can simply release the 377/5s. One presumes they could do this by allowing the 707s to replace Networkers, but then using the displaced Networkers to indirectly replace the 377/5s. In terms of numbers that does seem to work.

Notwithstanding all this creativity, I tend to agree with the view that the c2c 387s are probably more likely to end up with GWR, if Oxford is being electrified and now that some 387s are being used for Heathrow Express.
 

RobShipway

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I mean 365s shouldn’t have gone in the first place


313s aren’t exactly a microfleet, and are well suited to coastway work imo.

I just feel like 313s and 455s aren’t ready to go yet, and any new wires coming along can have 387 and 379s operating under them. Same goes for 350s. Just because we have an EMU surplus, doesn’t mean we should get rid of things not ready to get rid of.
Well, the last time I travelled on a class 313 from Seaford where I live to Brighton, it sounded like I was travelling on a farmers tractor rather than a train. You have to remember that the class 313's where introduced between 1976 - 1978. That is 45 years old! The class 365 have been in service since 1994, a good 20 years younger. I am sure that the class 365, can be easily converted to be used on 3rd rail as the units where built as dual voltage units.

The class 455 are a good ten years or more younger than the class 313's having been in service since 1983. It is about time the Class 313's got retired and the original first unit placed in the National Railway Museum.
 

CBlue

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Well, the last time I travelled on a class 313 from Seaford where I live to Brighton, it sounded like I was travelling on a farmers tractor rather than a train. You have to remember that the class 313's where introduced between 1976 - 1978. That is 45 years old! The class 365 have been in service since 1994, a good 20 years younger. I am sure that the class 365, can be easily converted to be used on 3rd rail as the units where built as dual voltage units.

The class 455 are a good ten years or more younger than the class 313's having been in service since 1983. It is about time the Class 313's got retired and the original first unit placed in the National Railway Museum.
Sorry to disappoint you but there have been many posts on the subject regarding 365s and DC capability. The components allowing them to run on 3rd rail were removed and binned years ago - plus electrical standards on rolling stock have changed since their introduction. I think it very, very unlikely they'll ever be DC capable again.
 

RobShipway

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Sorry to disappoint you but there have been many posts on the subject regarding 365s and DC capability. The components allowing them to run on 3rd rail were removed and binned years ago - plus electrical standards on rolling stock have changed since their introduction. I think it very, very unlikely they'll ever be DC capable again.
I did wonder if that was the case. Shame, I think that there is many 3rd rail routes that they could have been used on.
 

bramling

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Sorry to disappoint you but there have been many posts on the subject regarding 365s and DC capability. The components allowing them to run on 3rd rail were removed and binned years ago - plus electrical standards on rolling stock have changed since their introduction. I think it very, very unlikely they'll ever be DC capable again.

Unless the DC Networkers get an unexpected long-term future, I really can’t see any reason to even contemplate the possibility of putting the 365s back to DC, even if it were theoretically possible.

SWR is completely out - and future stock needs on there would almost certainly be met with converted 350/2s. I can’t see Southern sticking 365s south of the river when if they were going to do something for the 455s it would almost certainly involve Electrostars (365s on GN would of course facilitate that). This just leaves Southeastern, and if anything they’re looking to get rid of Networkers not take more on.

One thing to look out for as regards the 365s will be whether the DOO equipment on GN disappears, as I believe it already has on the Kings Lynn route.
 
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