New law will enshrine ‘right’ of commuters to minimum service during strikes, says Grant Shapps

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by CentralTrainer, 17 Dec 2019.

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  1. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    There are those on this website who would be the first to decry (fat cats/any other such term) who transferred their assets outside this country, so is it a different scenario in their minds when a trades union follows suit?
     
  2. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    A work to rule took place prior to DOOs introduction on C2C around 2002 although I can’t remember how long it lasted or if concessions were gained.
    Presumably the 27 day SWR strike was about maximum impact when govt/DFT were vulnerable & tied up with an election/ Brexit & Merseyrail had just capitulated to avoid more strikes .
     
    Last edited: 18 Dec 2019
  3. option

    option Member

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    Be quite easy to be 'asset-lite'. Most businesses don't own their premises.
     
  4. OneOffDave

    OneOffDave Member

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    It may be considered differently as it's not their money but that of their members that they are protecting
     
  5. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    That is not true.
     
  6. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

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    It's been reported over some news channels today that nurses over in northern Ireland are on strike over pay inconsistencies with those in Britain. Guessing the future legislation is only aimed towards railway staff?
     
  7. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I think they almost certainly seriously believed Jeremy would come to their rescue on or shortly after Dec 13th...
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Member

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    Why not? Surely anyone can join a union as long as they cover there job roles, or form their own union if none exist?
     
  9. nedchester

    nedchester Member

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    They don't you know........
     
  10. baz962

    baz962 Established Member

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    Not sure about the laws , but I meant you can easily cover certain job's , maybe then with permanent staff from other roles or branches/stores etc. Anyway , maybe Boris will change try and get that law changed too.
     
  11. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    We seem to be back on topic but, as a reminder, this thread, as with many others, is not an excuse to go off and waste time and electrons on pointless DOO arguments. Any further posts around DOO will be deleted as being off-topic.
     
  12. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    Yes, I see what you mean, ie there’s likley to be more part time / non union staff available to cover strike days in a supermarket environment than on the railway
     
  13. baz962

    baz962 Established Member

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    Yes , even already qualified driver's can't drive a route or traction type they don't sign , so a toc couldn't draft anyone in from say another depot etc .
     
  14. DT611

    DT611 Member

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    Striking workers lose out by striking as they don't get paid. However if they are doing it, it's for a good reason, regardless of whether someone else agrees or not, for which is ultimately irrelevant. If the workers feel it's a good reason then it is, after all it's their strike and they voted for it.
    The fact striking isn't an option for some is not a reason for it not to be an option for others, if many don't feel disadvantaged by not having that option that's up to them but plenty are disadvantaged by not having that option.
    Your employer finding a way to remove you from the business for striking is the one in the wrong, not the person striking, the fact they may be able to do it doesn't make it right, just or correct.
    Not being able to strike is more likely to remove the need to compromise because the employer has no incentive to work with the staff to solve the issue, whereas the ability to strike still means the staff, unions and management actually do have to find a compromise so as a strike can be avoided and staff not having to lose pay and the company losing out.
    If a change to a job description or a removal of a job effects the union's members, then the union is quite correct to get involved, that is their job, to protect their members as much as is possible.
    The rail unions are not responsible for what happens in other jobs and the people who work in those jobs, they are responsible for rail workers, or in the case of the RMT, maritime workers and possibly others.
    To replace unionised staff with non-unionised staff on the railway is very unlikely to be short term pain, but would be likely to be long term pain, probably many years of pain in reality. They have to be trained, You have to train new trainers to train the staff because you will have fired the old staff who had the experience. Because there are no unions conditions may go down and there is potentially a high turn over of staff + potential other issues that may arrise. But no doubt there would be people who would like such nonsense and a government who may even do it regardless of cost, issues and effects. The only way it could be short term pain is to barely do any training and operate on a whim and a prayer and hope for the best, which is not going to happen.
     
    Last edited: 18 Dec 2019
  15. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske On Moderation

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    In response to this, could you therefore be suggesting that commuters who are inconvenienced by RMT strikes earn more than an average wage for a Northern guard?
     
  16. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    I really, really don’t get this attitude. I really don’t.

    I go to work on the railway to make the railway experience better for passengers. That’s the reason I joined and the reason I’m still there.

    When my manager, or a colleague, or a member of my team asks me to do something, and if I can do it, I will. Helping passengers at stations at times of disruption, staying late to resolve an incident in control, working at weekends / bank holidays to help co-ordinate major works. None of which is in my job description or any contract. And none of which I get paid for.

    So I just don’t get why anyone wouldn’t do this, even if they were disgruntled with the company they work for. Or put another way, why would you do things that you know will make passengers’ experience of the railway worse?
     
  17. Raul_Duke

    Raul_Duke Member

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    I think you’ve misunderstood.

    I don’t do any of those things day to day. I will do my utmost to drive trains safely and to time. I’m not that bothered if they want to move my shift the night before, provided I can get childcare. I’ll help people with baggage, I’ll even attempt to help people at stations, despite often knowing less about tickets then they do...

    I’ve been more than two hours late home twice this month.

    What I’m saying is, if relations with your employer break down to the point where you would ordinarily be striking but are legally prevented from doing so, then that goodwill evaporates and can’t easily be legislated against.

    It becomes the last resort in place or striking and can arguably be more disruptive.
     
  18. bussnapperwm

    bussnapperwm Member

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    Because then people would complain to the member of staffs employer which will eventually force the employer to the table.
     
  19. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Isn't Police pay decided by an independent body rather than goverment because they can't strike? I seem to remember Thersea May caused herself all sorts of trouble when she overruled the independent body whilst she was Home Secretary.
     
  20. irish_rail

    irish_rail Established Member

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    So drivers who basically never strike in past 20 years will now be punished by Boris. I predict wide spread work to rule amongst drivers which will cause absolute chaos at present , plus the likelihood of strikes in the meantime . Sundays where workjng is voluntary will also probably take a big hit .Any rail staff who voted Tory hang your heads in shame .....
     
  21. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I'm far from convinced we need to rehash the same basic political arguments that so gripped the Forum of late on this thread when they've been more than adequately covered in dedicated threads in General Discussion.
     
  22. whoosh

    whoosh Member

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    You mean it's the line spun by the government and their friends in the media. An example was the dispute with RMT and TSSA on London Underground about the closure of ticket offices. Every newspaper article revelled in telling it's readers how much the ASLEF train drivers earned (often inflating it to the next £10-15k) - who weren't involved in the dispute at all.

    A lot of drivers actually took home about double their wage before privatisation, without doing any overtime, due to extra allowances that are now part of the salary. There are a good many drivers who are now TWICE as productive as under BR. No one ever mentions that though do they? Including so called expert Wolmar.
    Even moving five days work a week into four days is actually more productive (the unproductive booking on time and PNB of the fifth day being got rid of) and therefore beneficial to TOCs - again, you never hear that mentioned either.
    Newspaper articles and politicians and magazine columnists/editors never place the context of productivity gains alongside any pay rises.
     
  23. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    You are perfectly entitled to work late or at weekends etc without getting paid, although I really don't get why anyone would want to do so.

    When working, I have done similiar unscheduled work, but I was paid accordingly for my time. If an employer had wanted me to work without payment then my answer would have been short and sweet - fortunately, none of them ever asked.
     
  24. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Because it helps passengers when they need help the most.
     
  25. Raul_Duke

    Raul_Duke Member

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    You don’t have the monopoly on that though.
     
  26. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    Quite possibly.
     
  27. 387star

    387star On Moderation

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    How will this draconian measure work?

    How can you select a few drivers to drive trains if there aren't enough strike breakers or managers who can drive ? It's not a safe situation to force someone to drive against their wishes

    With the RMT strikes all trains on Greater Anglia ran but they came to a sensible resolution. Most trains on SWR look unaffected so what difference will there be ? Drivers hardly ever strike . The last time was 2016 during the southern strikes and I don't think ASLEF are going down that route again

    Of course this has to be presumably voted in first and minimum service defined
     
  28. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske On Moderation

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    I've worked without pay to help my department out. Sometimes it's just professional to deal with a backlog or an issue or to help others. I'm a lowly Band 2 office clerk, my take home pay is £16-17k. So yes, I know what it feels when better paid workers go on strike. According to Indeed, a Northern conductor (their term) can expect £23k.
     
  29. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    Co-ordination of major works at weekends/bank holidays should be an integral part of the plan for those works. I still don't get why you would want to do that work without being paid ..... but each to their own.
     
  30. Cestrian

    Cestrian New Member

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    It amazes me why the Unions don’t put a bid together to run a TOC for themselves?

    Is there anything to prevent this?

    Apologies if there is but being a long time lurker on the board, it would seem a better solution?
     
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