New Logo for Northern Trains LTD

[185]

Now that was the butt of a lot of jokes - mostly around the subject of whether Northern Spirit was an alcoholic beverage available from the trolley service (remember those?)

GNER had the nerve to call us Evil Spirit. My little riposte to my former colleagues was GNER was doctor's shorthand for the clap.

You're right though about MTL Northern Spirit's maroon livery, on our 158s - quite possibly one of the best liveries on the railway, with decent interior too.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

GNER - going nowhere except Retford!

 

[47271]

Call me superstitious, but they'll continue to be cursed until they get rid of that unlucky horseshoe!

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I would have thought it'd look like this below, by keeping the same theme, but capitalising the letters (Arriva's corporate lettering is in lower case)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m sorry but the whole point of the logo was that the N in the circle was the same font so an identical N to that of the word Northern next to it. Now that the n of Northern has been changed, it’s not even obvious that what’s in the circle is an n! It just looks like a droop!

 

[andrewbowden]

I bet they paid an advertising agency £50k for the one they have chosen!

Given the limited nature of the rebrand, it's quite possible it was done in house. Whoever did it, they presumably tried to find an off the shelf font that had similar qualities to the previous font (i.e. rounded corners).

It clearly doesn't work, but how much of that is due to the fact that NORTHERN doesn't match the height of the N logo, and the dodgy spacing. A few minutes editing and you have something that looks a lot better.

 

[py_megapixel]

Given the limited nature of the rebrand, it's quite possible it was done in house. Whoever did it, they presumably tried to find an off the shelf font that had similar qualities to the previous font (i.e. rounded corners).

It clearly doesn't work, but how much of that is due to the fact that NORTHERN doesn't match the height of the N logo, and the dodgy spacing. A few minutes editing and you have something that looks a lot better.

View attachment 79411

Indeed, that is far preferable. But I still prefer the lower case
Something about having two different Ns in different cases immediately next to each other looks a bit unprofessional to me.

 

[andrewbowden]

Indeed, that is far preferable. But I still prefer the lower case
Something about having two different Ns in different cases immediately next to each other looks a bit unprofessional to me.

I'm sure there's logos out there that have done similar, although only Merseyrail springs to mind right now.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

How about my example? The N's match the logo

 

[StephenHunter]

That looks awful. Rail Alphabet would be better.

 

[Andyh82]

Looks awful, it makes the unhappy face look even more like an unhappy face when the ‘N’ in Northern is now a capital letter. You can’t see the link with the ‘n’ as clearly.

 

[DarloRich]

who owns the intellectual property rights on the previous branding?

 

[andrewbowden]

who owns the intellectual property rights on the previous branding?

Northern Trains Ltd - i.e. the DfT.

Search for a trade mark - Intellectual Property Office

trademarks.ipo.gov.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do they even need to change it, then? Why not just airbrush out "by Arriva"?

 

[Energy]

Why do they even need to change it, then? Why not just airbrush out "by Arriva"?

I believe Arriva own the font.

 

[DarloRich]

Northern Trains Ltd - i.e. the DfT.

Search for a trade mark - Intellectual Property Office

trademarks.ipo.gov.uk

I believe Arriva own the font.

thanks - i wondered if it was to avoid some kind of potential "passing off" dispute

 

[C J Snarzell]

Are Northern still allowed to use the Arriva logo on old stock providing any new designs do not copy the Arriva logo?

I have noticed that alot of Northern merchandise such as staff uniforms still have have the Serco/Abellio design which is pre 2016.

There doesn't seem to be a shift by Northern to remove all traces of former franchises.

When Virgin went in December there was a real drive to remove everything associated with them including colour schemes in the stations.

CJ

 

[Energy]

Are Northern still allowed to use the Arriva logo on old stock providing any new designs do not copy the Arriva logo?

I have noticed that alot of Northern merchandise such as staff uniforms still have have the Serco/Abellio design which is pre 2016.

There doesn't seem to be a shift by Northern to remove all traces of former franchises.

When Virgin went in December there was a real drive to remove everything associated with them including colour schemes in the stations.

CJ

The Northern brand transferred from Arriva Rail North to Northern Trains ltd (the DfT) but the Virgin brand is still obviously owned by the Virgin group who will want the branding gone as Avanti don't pay for the brand and it could give Virgin a bad reputation as passengers confuse them because the Virgin branding is still there.

 

[Andyh82]

Are Northern still allowed to use the Arriva logo on old stock providing any new designs do not copy the Arriva logo?

I have noticed that alot of Northern merchandise such as staff uniforms still have have the Serco/Abellio design which is pre 2016.

There doesn't seem to be a shift by Northern to remove all traces of former franchises.

When Virgin went in December there was a real drive to remove everything associated with them including colour schemes in the stations.

CJ

I can’t say I’ve seen ‘a lot’ of Northern staff wearing Serco/Abellio uniforms. You might get the odd one wearing an old franchise jumper or something but it’s hardly company policy

 

[C J Snarzell]

I can’t say I’ve seen ‘a lot’ of Northern staff wearing Serco/Abellio uniforms. You might get the odd one wearing an old franchise jumper or something but it’s hardly company policy

Andy

I've definately seen a couple of staff wearing the old Abellio/Serco uniform. One of the guards I spoke to last year said some of their Abellio/Serco kit was better quality than the more up to date Arriva uniform.

On top of that, a few of the older fleets still have the Abellio/Serco colours. In fact one or two old pacers are still green from when they were under Arriva first time round (1997-2004) - some of these carriages can be seen on the Leeds to York route.

CJ

 

[YorksLad12]

Given the limited nature of the rebrand, it's quite possible it was done in house. Whoever did it, they presumably tried to find an off the shelf font that had similar qualities to the previous font (i.e. rounded corners).

It clearly doesn't work, but how much of that is due to the fact that NORTHERN doesn't match the height of the N logo, and the dodgy spacing. A few minutes editing and you have something that looks a lot better.

View attachment 79411

Some in-house design teams know their onions (I've worked with a few). They don't use fonts that we would find on our Windows laptops/PCs or on Macs, especially for signage and logotypes, they tend to buy specific fonts and weights, then edit/redesign one or two letters in the logotype so that people like us can't quickly knock up something that looks "about right"

Not all fonts are available to buy or download of course. Pretty sure NR Brunel and BBC Reith aren't available for general use. The ATN Northern typeface used to remind me of Avant Garde (although it clearly isn't).

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I believe Arriva own the font.

I don't think it's a "font" as such. It looks to me like a custom logotype, where the characters were drawn specially for this logo. I doubt very much whether anyone's ever drawn a "w" or "z" in that font, in other words.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Oh, and if we're on "Speculative Typography", this is what I'd do.

Deliberately old-fashioned, reliable and unflashy, because that's the image the Northern franchise needs to project right now. It's the sort of typography a staid regional bank might use. The one concession to modern branding is the full stop at the end, to emphasise a certain northern bluntness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the limited nature of the rebrand, it's quite possible it was done in house. Whoever did it, they presumably tried to find an off the shelf font that had similar qualities to the previous font (i.e. rounded corners).

It clearly doesn't work, but how much of that is due to the fact that NORTHERN doesn't match the height of the N logo, and the dodgy spacing. A few minutes editing and you have something that looks a lot better.

View attachment 79411

That actually does look OK.

 

[43096]

I believe Arriva own the font.

Do they? The whole point of neutral branding is to transfer the brand across - as I recall it this was part of the DfT's requirements.

 

[43096]

That actually does look OK.

Nah. There's no connection between the 'n' logo and the text. Might just as well go with...

Northern

 

[andrewbowden]

One person I know suggested the N in the circle looked like a tunnel.

 

[Inthewest]

I don't think its comic sans but whatever font it is I think Arriva owned the font (or at least the word "Northern" in that Font)
And this is proof that arriva uses the same font for its other companies
This was the old Northen font View attachment 79367

This is Arriva's current font View attachment 79366

Those aren't the same font?
Look at the R letter. On the Arriva word, it curves round significantly more than on the Northern word. Similar but not the same.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I always quite liked the Northern Spirit name and especially the maroon and gold livery, has enough time passed for it to be resurrected ? Does Arriva technically own that too?

 

[py_megapixel]

I always quite liked the Northern Spirit name and especially the maroon and gold livery, has enough time passed for it to be resurrected ? Does Arriva technically own that too?

Hmm.... Northern Spirit has always struck me as better suited to be the name of a train rather than the name of a TOC. I've always thought just calling it anything which refers to "the North" as one block is a bit impersonal.

You could do it by counties "Cumbria, Lancashire, Northumberland, County Durham, Yorkshire and some bits of Cheshire, Staffordshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire Railway"