New London Routemaster buses

[MarkyMarkD]

Mainly because it's slightly cheaper---London's bus fares, even after a 50% fare rise in recent years, are still exceptionally good value. You can go all the way from Ilford to central London on the 25 for £1.35, whereas the same journey would cost £3.70 off peak (and £4.90 during the peak) on the train/Tube.

A day's unlimited travel on all London's buses and trams is £4.20---the equivalent travelcards (tube, NR, DLR, LOROL) are substantially dearer. Children travel free on buses (so do pensioners and disabled people, but they also get free travel at most times on trains with their Freedom Pass.)

Don't forget, too, that it's a door-to-door service. To get to central London on the Tube I have to walk from my flat to the tube station (around 10 minutes, and crossing a busy road.) If I get the bus, it takes me five minutes to walk to the bus stop and hail a bus. It's slower (although not too slow, given bus lanes) but it's just as frequent as the Tube, I don't have to climb a long flight of stairs at either end, and I can alight two streets away from my destination rather than ten minutes' walk away. (On an open platform bus, it's even more convenient---if you're lucky, you can get off right in front of your destination if you're stopped in traffic.)

Having been on LT2 yesterday, there definitely seems to be something "off" with its climate control. It wasn't a particularly warm day, but upstairs, towards the front, I was roasting unnecessarily. I suppose we'll know when LT1 and LT3 arrive if this is a problem with this particular bus or a problem with the design of the air-chilling system.

Also, the conductors are unusually concerned about making you stand back from the platform edge while the bus is moving (which is a PITA when you're trying to peer out to see where your stop is!) Presumably this is out of a desire to avoid headlines such as "BORIS'S BUS MURDERS FAMILY OF FOUR."

As a non-London resident, I have to say that I find London's bus fare are LUDICROUSLY low. Having a flat fare of £1.35 in London, when it is possible to pay £3.00 in my area to travel just 4 miles, is completely unresaonable. (Or a day bus maximum of £4.20 for the whole enormous London Buses area, when I would have to pay £5.50 to cover an area of about 5 miles in each direction).

Giving control of fare-setting in London to an elected mayor has led to a situation where (due to worries about electoral unpopularity) fares are set an unrealistic (low) levels, leading to massive capacity issues on both buses and (even more so) the tube. Londonders moaning about fare increases (all the time in the Metro and Evening Standard recently) should try living somewhere else in the UK (especially in the South East) and travelling the same sort of distances!

 

[Schnellzug]

The bus is cheaper.

Plus it's good for sightseeing.

 

[150222]

I'm still having trouble converting euros to dollars, but I get what you're saying. It's like the Washington DC Metro where the bus is cheaper than the train.

In Britain we use pounds (stirling), not euros.

 

[Deerfold]

In Britain we use pounds (stirling), not euros.

Or Sterling even. In parts of Scotland they may use Pounds Stirling.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mainly because it's slightly cheaper---London's bus fares, even after a 50% fare rise in recent years, are still exceptionally good value. You can go all the way from Ilford to central London on the 25 for £1.35, whereas the same journey would cost £3.70 off peak (and £4.90 during the peak) on the train/Tube.

In 2001 cash bus fares were 70p for journeys that didn't include zone 1, £1 for journeys that did. In 2004 they went up to £1 for any journey but 70p if you bought a saver ticket in advance, so that rise is over quite a few years.

You could argue that zone 1 journeys have only gone up 35% in 11 years.

 

[Schnellzug]

Do they still do bus-only day tickets? They used to be a very good bargain, but I heard that either Ken or Boris had scrapped them in an attempt, presumably, to force everyone to buy a much more expensive Travelcard. In fact, you can't even buy a travelcard from the ticket machines at bus stops, can you? You have to go into a Tube station to get one, even if you have no wish to use the Choob.

 

[Deerfold]

Do they still do bus-only day tickets? They used to be a very good bargain, but I heard that either Ken or Boris had scrapped them in an attempt, presumably, to force everyone to buy a much more expensive Travelcard. In fact, you can't even buy a travelcard from the ticket machines at bus stops, can you? You have to go into a Tube station to get one, even if you have no wish to use the Choob.

You cannot buy bus-only day tickets.

However there is a bus-only cap on Oyster and 7-day and longer bus-only tickets are available.

I thought it was quite good when they offered bus-only day tickets at the machines at stops in central London - but presumably they were a bit too much of a bargain compared with over £2 for single.

 

[campcrusader]

I doubt many people are going out of their way to catch it (though a few will have to do it once). Besides eventually there will be as many as eight of them.

Though we're still waiting for the 2nd...

There have definitely been two running this week. I've been one one, twice, and we've passed the other in the opposite direction.
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Why would people use a bus in downtown London when it is so congested? I can understand tourists who like the double deckers, but why would Londoners use bus when the Tube is (presumably) faster?

The buses tend to move reasonably quickly - and are handy if you live quite close to the centre. The tourists do slow things down a little...

 

[Deerfold]

There have definitely been two running this week. I've been one one, twice, and we've passed the other in the opposite direction.

Apologies - I've kept hearing contradictory information about this. It appears the 2nd *did* enter service on Monday after all.

 

[campcrusader]

Apologies - I've kept hearing contradictory information about this. It appears the 2nd *did* enter service on Monday after al.

I didn't think there were two either - I'd heard the same as you. It was only when the other passed that I realised!

 

[campcrusader]

Is there any news as to when the third (and subsequent!) NB4Ls are joining the fleet???

 

[Deerfold]

Is there any news as to when the third (and subsequent!) NB4Ls are joining the fleet???

Current plans (subject to change at short notice):

NBfLs now running at weekends (from last Saturday)
3rd bus starts 20/04/2012
4th bus starts 04/05/2012
5th bus starts 28/05/2012

 

[campcrusader]

Current plans (subject to change at short notice):

NBfLs now running at weekends (from last Saturday)
3rd bus starts 20/04/2012
4th bus starts 04/05/2012
5th bus starts 28/05/2012

Thank you! Do you know if there is a timetable for the weekend runs?

 

[Deerfold]

Thank you! Do you know if there is a timetable for the weekend runs?

Looks like the usually reliable source at : http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/038N038.htm
has got fed up with the number of times they've chopped and changed.

The only timetable I can find is rather unwieldy and assumes 2 buses in operation. I offer no guarantee as to whether it will run anywhere near these times. This is for Saturdays.

It involves buses leaving Clapton at:
0531*
0624*
0709
0804
0854
1000
1100
1217
1327
1447
1610*
1717
1843

*These journeys do not serve Clapton so are times at Hackney Central

From Victoria:

0619
0712
0800
0900
0957
1111
1214
1334
1444*
1604
1724
1834*
1956*

*Short runs - do not serve Clapton.

 

[Schnellzug]

does anyone know yet, more importantly, what they're called? I can't keep referring to them as New Bus for London, that's very unwieldy, and I refuse to call them Borismaster.

 

[Deerfold]

does anyone know yet, more importantly, what they're called? I can't keep referring to them as New Bus for London, that's very unwieldy, and I refuse to call them Borismaster.

Sorry to disappoint you. I've not seen them referred to as anything else than the NBfL so far (apart from "Borismaster" which is definitely unofficial ).

 

[transmanche]

Do they still do bus-only day tickets? They used to be a very good bargain, but I heard that either Ken or Boris had scrapped them in an attempt, presumably, to force everyone to buy a much more expensive Travelcard.

No, but there is a daily price cap of £4.20 for bus/tram journeys on Oyster - about the same level as the old one-day bus pass

In fact, you can't even buy a travelcard from the ticket machines at bus stops, can you? You have to go into a Tube station to get one, even if you have no wish to use the Choob.

Or from one of the thousands of local shops ('Ticket stops') that sell Travelcards, etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a non-London resident, I have to say that I find London's bus fare are LUDICROUSLY low. Having a flat fare of £1.35 in London, when it is possible to pay £3.00 in my area to travel just 4 miles, is completely unresaonable. (Or a day bus maximum of £4.20 for the whole enormous London Buses area, when I would have to pay £5.50 to cover an area of about 5 miles in each direction).

Giving control of fare-setting in London to an elected mayor has led to a situation where (due to worries about electoral unpopularity) fares are set an unrealistic (low) levels, leading to massive capacity issues on both buses and (even more so) the tube. Londonders moaning about fare increases (all the time in the Metro and Evening Standard recently) should try living somewhere else in the UK (especially in the South East) and travelling the same sort of distances!

Well that's the advantage of a publicly controlled network.

TfL can use the 'profits' from busy daytime services to subside less busy (e.g. evening) services and keep overall fares down. Plus they can use cross-subsidy from Congestion Charge, etc. So whilst the overall fares are low, it is true that fares have increased 50% under Boris. Which is a lot in percentage terms.

Authorities in other places should be lobbying to get TfL-style control of bus services, then fares in other large towns/cities could be as low as in London.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Well that's the advantage of a publicly controlled network.

TfL can use the 'profits' from busy daytime services to subside less busy (e.g. evening) services and keep overall fares down. Plus they can use cross-subsidy from Congestion Charge, etc. So whilst the overall fares are low, it is true that fares have increased 50% under Boris. Which is a lot in percentage terms.

Authorities in other places should be lobbying to get TfL-style control of bus services, then fares in other large towns/cities could be as low as in London.

Nice theory, transmanche, but not true.

TfL's buses are subsidised to the tune of c£400m, which comes from central government, not London residents.

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=26313

Unlike the rest of the country, where local council taxpayers pay for whatever (limited) subsidy is in place, generally restricted to off-peak and weekend services.

 

[transmanche]

TfL's buses are subsidised to the tune of c£400m, which comes from central government, not London residents.

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=26313

The article you linked says that TfL subsidise bus services to the tune of £387M pa.

This year, the budget for TfL Buses is:

Income: £1,360M
Expenditure on bus contracts: £1,747M
Difference: £387M​

And the difference is funded by TfL - not directly by central government.

Unlike the rest of the country, where local council taxpayers pay for whatever (limited) subsidy is in place, generally restricted to off-peak and weekend services.

Of course, like the rest of the country, TfL receives grant money from central government. And like ITAs in the rest of the country, TfL receives money from council tax precept. (Plus it receives money from London Councils for concessionary travel.) And then TfL decides how to spend it.

And actually you've highlighted precisely my point. In the rest of the country commercial operators take the profits from busy daytime services and then expect subsidies for running the loss-making evening/weekend services. Whereas in London, it's TfL who take the profits from the busy daytime services.