Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or maybe we could stop all the fragmentation and just charge a reasonable Off Peak fare? Advances on a half hour journey with many trains per hour are a laughable idea.
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New Northern Advance Fares Liverpool to Manchester
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Only the hourly TPE 185s running non-stop manage a journey time close to the 30 minutes you mention and even then it's closer to 35. The semi-fast services (whether they are Northern 319s via Chat Moss or EMT 158s or TPE 185s via Warrington) take 45-50 minutes to get from Manchester to Liverpool.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Splitting hairs; it still makes no sense whatsoever for local journeys with 5+ TPH.
So if EMT run a service with a loading of 250 between Sheffield and Manchester and 160 between Manchester and Liverpool, it makes no sense for them to try and incentive passengers to use their services to fill up the empty seats? Offering a cheap EMT only Off-Peak Return wouldn't work as it could mean even more passengers on the busier services, unless they do a EMT only Super Off-Peak Return, which is then more confusing to passengers.
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TPE set the non-operator specific fares for Liverpool to Manchester, they also do for Manchester to Sheffield. I wonder if TPE became the fare setter as they were only operator to provide 1st class accommodation, meaning it wouldn't have made sense for Central (prior to EMT) or Northern to set the 1st class fares when they didn't offer 1st class.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't support TOC only fares full stop, as you are aware. Advances have their role, of course, but not for that kind of journey.
What price (single/return) would you propose the fares be?
PermitToTravel
Established Member
Is there a reason they couldn't let TPE price the first class fares and a more suitable TOC the remainder?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't know, as I don't know what they are now. Lose the Advances and make a small reduction in walk ups to be revenue neutral would do.
Lose the advances and you lose passengers.
Why pay £8 for a train journey when they can pay £1 with Megabus?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because the train is faster and more comfortable. Why take a slow, cramped bus when the train is reasonably priced?
The route has off-peak 'peaks' around 0930-1100 and in the afternoon peak. For 2 or 3 hours in between and in the evening on non-party nights or when there aren't big events, there are a lot of free seats. Particularly on 4-car EMT and Northern services.
I highly doubt that APs are a 'box ticking' exercise because if they were they wouldn't be reducing the price. I think quite a lot of people do purchase them. I wish we could have cheaper [Super] Off-Peaks instead.
I highly doubt that APs are a 'box ticking' exercise because if they were they wouldn't be reducing the price. I think quite a lot of people do purchase them. I wish we could have cheaper [Super] Off-Peaks instead.
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There's no real difference in journey time between the rail semi-fasts and the express coaches (the NX ones.) While if your actual journey is Salford to Liverpool the coach is faster. On the coach you are guaranteed a seat if you're sold a ticket, something the rail operators can't guarantee.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
TPE and EMT offer seat reservations. If it bothers you, reserve one, otherwise don't make that point without making the counter-point that when it's full, it's full - best start walking.
Last time I was on the EMT service it was shortformed and the conductor announced due to the short formation seat reservations would not be honoured.
NX do run duplicate services if the seats sell out early.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And coaches can break down so you don't get on at all rather than being allowed to stand.
A curious function of which is that TPE set the Liverpool to Sheffield fares, even though they don't operate any through trains and EMT do!
As for the First Class issue I think that's possible but relatively unlikely. Northern in both historical and very recent cases do price and create new First Class fares of all kinds.
You're right that some trains are slower over a relatively short journey. How does that make it more sensible to sell loads of Advance tickets?
And don't get compensated!
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Another group of passengers to hit for 3 or 4 times what they paid on the train and get loads of aggro off as well as people who've paid 3 quid for a journey rarely like being charged another 12 as on this route they seem uniquely unable to stick to their booked trains. 6 months on from the OP I'm still hitting anywhere up to double figures of people per journey who've boarded my fast rather than the Northern stopper.
But no, the TOCs don't see it that way, it's just more non-ORCATS divisible pocket money to them.
But no, the TOCs don't see it that way, it's just more non-ORCATS divisible pocket money to them.
gray1404
Established Member
Its not just since Northern started offering Advance there was a problem with customers boarding other TOCs services when EMT offered advances between LIV-MAN and NT didn't. Needless to say, there are many flows on the network on which problems with passengers boarding the wrong service occurs.
In the case of boarding the EMT Norwich service, I would give the passenger the option to leave the train at the next station (be that Liverpool South Parkway, Widnes or Warrington Central) depending on where abouts the ticket is being checked en-route, and wait for their "counted place" Northern service to pull up there.
It can get more complicated when guards start doing PAs along the lines of "tickets marked VTWC Only (for example) are not valid on this service so please check your ticket." I was on a LM service recently where such a PA was made and a woman next to me (who was only going a couple of stops out of Brum) got into a panic. Here ticket was VTWC&Connections, so of course it was valid as she'd got off the VT service which she'd used for the bulk of her journey and was just finishing off the "local" bit with LM.
I think the problem here is passengers not knowing how to use the railway network. Some passengers are clueless and just cannot take on board the most basic of information. When you buy an Advance ticket, be that online or at a booking office, it should be made clear to you - at the very least - that the ticket is valid only on the services specified at the time of booking.
I do not believe it would be right to deny passenger who know how to use trains correctly, the flow of an Advance ticket
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But it isn't, because of the connections bit. Personally, I think it would be easier if counted places reservations were added to all services (just using 99999 at the relevant full single fare if the TOC doesn't want to quota control them) and thus the entire intended itinerary is printed on the new style ticket. That would be a benefit to the vast majority of passengers even if it would remove flexibility very slightly.
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One advantage of a move to e-ticketing, as I have proposed before is that ORCATS could be abolished, with the actual TOCs used getting a proportional share of any walk up fare based on what the actual passenger did. That would also motivate the TOC to do adequate ticket checks, because without that they would perhaps get nowt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One advantage of a move to e-ticketing, as I have proposed before is that ORCATS could be abolished, with the actual TOCs used getting a proportional share of any walk up fare based on what the actual passenger did. That would also motivate the TOC to do adequate ticket checks, because without that they would perhaps get nowt.
gray1404
Established Member
Yes, you are right, it isn't strictly speaking VTWC Only (in my example) because of the &Connctions - it is valid on a connecting LM service. However, put a lot of the public in a siutation whereby they hear a little bit of information they make more out of it and get confused. i.e. they HEAR "tickets marked VTWC are not valid on this service" and then SEE "VTWC&Connections" on their ticket and then piece those 2 bits of information together, get confused and conclude that their ticket is NOT valid on that (in my example LM) connecting service.
How would that work in terms of a counted place having a value of 99999? I don't quite understand this. Would the price not be the existing price of the [TOC]&Connctions Advance ticket, with £0.00 being printed on the reservation ticket for those tickets printed old style. Or do you mean having 99999 "counted place spaces on each train if they don't want to really control it? If so, where os using the relivant full single fare if its an advance come in?
Sorry Neil, I'm not the best informed clearly but would like to learn
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I agree with your post almost entirely, but just couldn't help pointing out that the Northern service is actually quicker
(Image shows services Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly, NT 45mins, TP 47mins, EM 49 mins)
gray1404
Established Member
I don't ever see this happening with walk up fares to be honest. It would be impossible for each and every passenger to have their ticket checked on every journey across the network. It would also make ticketing checking difficult if it also had to be registered what the customer actually did (i.e. stations traveled from and to on the sai train) at the time if they customer had several trains to catch on one journey. This is just way too complicated.
Yes, the Northern semifast services to Manchester Airport (serving Oxford Road and Piccadilly) are quicker then then services going via Warrington (including the EMT and TPE services also going that way). However, the Northern stopper, again going Warrington takes forever due to all the stations called at enroute.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
How would that work in terms of a counted place having a value of 99999? I don't quite understand this. Would the price not be the existing price of the [TOC]&Connctions Advance ticket, with £0.00 being printed on the reservation ticket for those tickets printed old style. Or do you mean having 99999 "counted place spaces on each train if they don't want to really control it? If so, where os using the relivant full single fare if its an advance come in?
Sorry Neil, I'm not the best informed clearly but would like to learn
Yes, I meant using 999999 (or whatever the max is) counted places. For the fare I meant to use the relevant Single fare if it was not possible to stop the Advances going on sale - thus meaning they would never be sold as there would be no discount - though if they can be stopped from being sold that would be better.
gray1404
Established Member
ah ok, I get it now regarding using 999999 as the maximum possible number of counted places.
Regarding using the Single Fare to stop them going on sale. Why would they want to do this? I think it would be simular now in that you have to wait for the main reservable part of your journey (e.g. with the intercity/regional operator) to open their resrvations before you can book your advance, which will include a connection on a local service.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I mean that if the counted places exist only for through ticketing, the TOC may not wish to sell their own Advances at all - for instance I doubt Merseyrail would have any interest in doing so, but there do exist &Connections tickets valid on their trains.
gray1404
Established Member
but just because they have a quota of counted place reservations on a train doesn't cause the system to allow advance bookings just for journeys solely being made on that servic os it. First off there would need to be an Advance fare in the system. Even with counted place reservations, as there is no Advance fare on any 2 destinations on Merseyrail, it would not be possible for such a ticket to be issued and the counted place element would only come into place which a customer was booking a &Connctions Advance ticket.
Another example could be Liverpool Lime Street to Liverpool South Parkway as it currently stands. Northern and LM have counted place reservations (with TPE & EMT with true [seat] reservations) but so Advance fare exists between the 2 stations. So therefore, the only fare that could be sold is a walk up so unless the customers Advance ticket requires it for a journey further afield is a counted place used up.
Another example could be Liverpool Lime Street to Liverpool South Parkway as it currently stands. Northern and LM have counted place reservations (with TPE & EMT with true [seat] reservations) but so Advance fare exists between the 2 stations. So therefore, the only fare that could be sold is a walk up so unless the customers Advance ticket requires it for a journey further afield is a counted place used up.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I see. So a large number of counted places for that train (however many 9s will fit in the field) would do the job.
Very slightly eh?
What do you do about Underground trains in London? If you specify a train, how does the passenger know they are on the right one?
Then with most cross London connections the time allowed is, how shall we put it, generous. When I finish a York to Dartford journey I have many options on trains I could catch. If I was tied to the official connection I may well have to watch 3-4 trains leave London Bridge. And what happens if the specified connection train is cancelled? Are passengers allowed to take an earlier one because they are there?
Any attempt to specify valid connection trains when they are suburban frequent services is a recipe for disaster in my opinion, and would never have my support.
gray1404
Established Member
When TOC telesales first came about and they printed the tickets on large airline style paper tickets, I remember having some Advances and the "reserved" train would show the seat reservation. The local connctions though would print a time but would say "Suggested Service" in the reservations collum. Perhaps a return to somthing like this ("Suggested Service") but using the current tickets stock in the new style printing format.....
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