New northern DMU’s due in 2022 as of yet unclassified.

[Geeves]

After the 15th of this month entirely zero unless other bits get wired too.

 

[edwin_m]

195s can run at SP/MU/DMU/HST differential speeds, 175s can take advantage of MU/DMU/HST but not SP differential speeds.

And SP is the critical one for the Hope Valley.

 

[td97]

Wigan NW - Alderley Edge would be 6 diagrams without the current interworking; as they're booked doubles that's 12 2-carriage DMUs.
It's likely the TT would be rejigged to enable EMU running if it was wired.
Lostock (12) + Windermere (4?) + the 3 additional 195s already ordered would practically negate any additional requirement for the 18x DMUs.
I'd place my money on electrification + leasing cheap EMUs (Northern are taking 17/26 323s; Lostock wires would enable them to take them all) as having better cost ratios than buying new diesels.
If only some heads could be banged together at DafT

 

[py_megapixel]

I remember discussion somewhere a few years ago about Northern needing some additional DMUs "of comparable quality to Class 170 Turbostars." I don't remember how many of these there were meant to be.
Has this discrepancy been solved somehow?

 

[Jamesrob637]

I thought these were to be delivered "no later than 2022?"

 

[507021]

I thought these were to be delivered "no later than 2022?"

That's correct.

Eighteen additional units are expected, and personally, I expect they'll be more 195s.

 

[Jamesrob637]

That's correct.

Eighteen additional units are expected, and personally, I expect they'll be more 195s.

True but we may only know in 2021. More 195s would make sense as CAF will probably keep the rights to the design for another year or two before some EU directive or whatever renders it obsolete.

 

[Evolution]

Would they not just order 196/197s since they will be compatible with the 195s?

 

[507021]

Would they not just order 196/197s since they will be compatible with the 195s?

I believe so, yes.

Come to think of it, 196s would be better than more 195s because at least they'd have a gangway.

 

[High Dyke]

That may answer a further question. Northern had contracted EMR to transfer their unit, coming off the Barton Branch of an evening, to Lincoln for onward conveyance to Sheffield. Like-wise a unit is taken to Cleethorpes for the days service. Seemingly, now Northern have actually sub-contracted EMR to provide a unit for their service, which AIUI is crewed by TPE.

 

[Evolution]

I believe so, yes.

Come to think of it, 196s would be better than more 195s because at least they'd have a gangway.

That was my thinking, they would actually be a better fit in a way.

 

[superkev]

I believe so, yes.

Come to think of it, 196s would be better than more 195s because at least they'd have a gangway.

Apparently the 196s wont run in multiple with 195s so prob not.
Assuming, after the covirus thing Northern still need more dmus how about some of those rather nice if heavy and thirsty 185s that are going off lease from TPe
K

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Apparently the 196s wont run in multiple with 195s so prob not.
Assuming, after the covirus thing Northern still need more dmus how about some of those rather nice if heavy and thirsty 185s that are going off lease from TPe
K

If Liverpool to Nottingham goes to TPE, they'll need pretty much the whole 185 fleet.

As you say they're heavy and thirsty. Given that we're constantly being told how much of a financial basket-case Northern is, I fail to see a single advantage to the seemingly constant suggestions of 185s. Little or no crew knowledge; no depot knowledge; they don't do anything that Northern needs that cheaper units can't also do. The only advantage is that they're already cleared for some routes, but those routes aren't necessarily the ones the "170-equivalent" units are for anyway.

 

[Glenn1969]

Is the Barton Line still meant to be transferring to EMR this year? I agree Northern will prob end up with more 195s

 

[Mikey C]

Apparently the 196s wont run in multiple with 195s so prob not.
Assuming, after the covirus thing Northern still need more dmus how about some of those rather nice if heavy and thirsty 185s that are going off lease from TPe
K

Why wouldn't they run in multiple? That would be bonkers

 

[Nym]

Why wouldn't they run in multiple? That would be bonkers

Because it wasn't in the specification, and, well, CAF?

 

[Jamesrob637]

What is it with mid-2000s stuff like 185s being thirsty? Is it the extra weight? It's the same with mid-2000s luxury cars: you'll struggle to see 40-45mpg from even most diesels on a run, probably only 30-35mpg nowadays and the tax band is like H to J i.e. really high! They'll be fairly attractive post-COVID-19 but only if fuel prices remain at the current late-2000s levels and they sell for relatively cheap with full service history.

 

[507 001]

Why wouldn't they run in multiple? That would be bonkers

Couplers are configured differently. One has the electrical box above the mechanical bit, the other below.

 

[Energy]

What is it with mid-2000s stuff like 185s being thirsty? Is it the extra weight? It's the same with mid-2000s luxury cars: you'll struggle to see 40-45mpg from even most diesels on a run, probably only 30-35mpg nowadays and the tax band is like H to J i.e. really high! They'll be fairly attractive post-COVID-19 but only if fuel prices remain at the current late-2000s levels and they sell for relatively cheap with full service history.

185s were specced to be powerful so they could go over the pennines will still having some speed, so they had the same engine as the voyagers and adelantes but never went over 100mph. This extra power helps over the pennines but at the cost of fuel economy. For the rest of the trains from that time, I don't think 170s take too much fuel but the high speed ones are always going to take more and engine technology wasn't as advanced then.

 

[37424]

I would imagine if Northern wanted a corridor version that worked with the 195's CAF would do one.

The extra units applied to a franchise that no longer exists so I would think there is no certainty they will apply going forward with the OLR reviewing the operation and possible effects of the virus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason 170s are thirsty compared with 150s (say) is that the transmission stays in torque converter mode to a higher speed. This could presumably be adjusted in some way, e.g. regearing the final drives for a 75mph top speed more suited to the services Northern are using them on.

 

[superkev]

If Liverpool to Nottingham goes to TPE, they'll need pretty much the whole 185 fleet.

As you say they're heavy and thirsty. Given that we're constantly being told how much of a financial basket-case Northern is, I fail to see a single advantage to the seemingly constant suggestions of 185s. Little or no crew knowledge; no depot knowledge; they don't do anything that Northern needs that cheaper units can't also do. The only advantage is that they're already cleared for some routes, but those routes aren't necessarily the ones the "170-equivalent" units are for anyway.

Yes the 185s may be heavy and thirsty but may be cheap if the leasing company become desperate to find a home for them.
K

 

[LowLevel]

Barton, Liverpool - Nottingham and the extra Northern units are all things which you could anticipate will be heavily impacted by the collapse of the Northern franchise and COVID-19. Barton is proving to be a technical headache, EMR have apparently been asked to put in a late bid for Liverpool - Nottingham as a split route vice Northern and who knows what conclusion will be reached about extra trains for Northern at some point.

I expect it will be as clear as mud for some time to come.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes the 185s may be heavy and thirsty but may be cheap if the leasing company become desperate to find a home for them.
K

Which will make no difference to track access charges or fuel costs.

They're unlikely to leave TPE anyway. In any case their inability to use differential speeds may mean they don't qualify as "170 equivalent".