New Northern Only Liverpool - Manchester Walk Up Fares

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by gray1404, 12 Mar 2018.

  1. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Just had an email advising of Northern Only Liverpool - Manchester Walk Up fares and 7 day season ticket. Just looked on BR fares but not listed yet to get prices and restrictions. Will check online later.
     
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  3. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    They should offer these on the Liverpool - Manchester Airport flow as well.
     
  4. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Interesting that TPE set these fares when they are very much (for the time being at least) the minority operator.
     
  5. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    In typical fashion, TPE have also hurriedly introduced their own exclusive fares, 5p cheaper than the Northern Only fares.
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Presumably these are temporary fares, as they are not allowed to do that long-term in order to prevent this kind of silly price spat causing a race to the bottom or a deprecation of Any Permitted fares.

    (The risk in the latter case is that the fare-setter sets TOC specific fares at the Any Permitted rates, then hikes the Any Permitted fares right up so they are unaffordable - therefore, other than temporary fares, the fare setter for the flow cannot introduce permanent TOC specific fares)
     
  7. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    How long is 'temporary'? As long as the 'temporary' rail replacement bus service that's been running to stations like Norton Bridge for the last 14 years?
     
  8. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    34 weeks, then a 17 week gap before anything substantially the same can be offered again?
     
  9. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    They're not very much of a discount...

    Also, they've introduced them between Widnes and Liverpool. A clear hit against EMT.
     
  10. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    Thats good news. One of the advantages of a private sector system should be competion on price. I hope at some point Northern work with TfGM to do Northern and Metrolink tickets that are cheaper than the all ToCs tickets.
     
  11. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Agreed, I haven’t checked the non-railcard fares but the discount appears to be less than £1.50 on a £9 fare whilst halving (or worse) the number of trains available.

    And EMT could probably do without the Widnes passengers to be honest given that they’re also carrying Stockport, Sheffield and Nottingham passengers. I’d be surprised if they introduced their own fares in response.

    Edit: Northern’s dedicated fares between Liverpool and Warrington are now 10p cheaper than TPE, at £4.60/£6.40 for a day return.
     
  12. lyndhurst25

    lyndhurst25 Member

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    Unless the new cheap Liverpool to Manchester fares are routed "Northern + connections" or "TPE + connections", and are also available from stations on the Wirral and north Liverpool suburbs, then all this competition isn't really helping all those who live in MerseyRail land.
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    They aren't helping anyone. They are just fragmenting what is quite a complex web network.

    There is no need for them whatsoever.
     
  14. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I’d be inclined to agree. At such a pathetic reduction off the Any Permitted fare, the potential for confused passengers far outweights the benefit of any saving. £7.50 return is the level at which I’d see exclusive fares as good value.
     
  15. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    They just cause depression when they're sold to unwitting passengers at a tiny discounted who then get hit for the walk up fare again on EMT or other services as appropriate.

    Given my TOC receives none of the revenue I always charge again for the appropriate off peak day ticket or put the passenger off at the next stop (their choice) to wait for an appropriate train.

    They're a pain in the backside all round.
     
  16. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    Shouldn't you just charge for an excess to the 'Any Permitted' fare?
     
  17. bunnahabhain

    bunnahabhain Established Member

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    No, you can't excess from a TOC only fare to an any permitted fare due to the way the revenue is ringfenced. The ticket was never valid for EMT services, so is treated under condition 9. On Monday morning I had no fewer than 20 of the various TPE only and Northern only tickets on my train, I opted for the education approach and advised them all to read what they were buying carefully and I'd let them off on that occasion.
     
  18. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    Not allowed to delete TOC restrictions with excesses
     
  19. lyndhurst25

    lyndhurst25 Member

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    Maybe that's one ticketing rule that needs rethinking. One of many...
     
  20. bunnahabhain

    bunnahabhain Established Member

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    Actually I think TOC specific tickets need rethinking. :)
     
  21. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Clear cut and correct in this case. In other cases where savings are 50% or more, as on the ECML and for some WMT fares, there is a possibility of some passenger benefit.
     
  22. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Much as I think they need longer trains first, I can see the point in LNR Only fares for long distance journeys; they address a different market - in effect competing more with coaches and budget cars than with VT.

    City transport networks, which is what the local services around the North West conurbation by and large are, work better with integration, not fragmentation.
     
  23. johnsmith1972

    johnsmith1972 Member

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  24. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    To summarise some numbers, as of today, 14th March:

    Liverpool <> Manchester

    Off-Peak Day Return
    TransPennine only £11.50
    Northern Only £11.60
    Any Permitted £13.70
    Anytime Day Return
    TransPennine Only £15.60
    Northern Only £15.80
    Any Permitted £18.70

    Warrington <> Manchester

    Off-Peak Day Return
    Northern Only £6.20
    TransPennine Only £6.30
    Any Permitted £8.20 [NB afternoon restrictions]
    Anytime Day Return
    Northern Only £7.40
    TransPennine Only £7.50
    Any Permitted £9.70

    Warrington <> Liverpool

    Off-Peak Day Return
    Northern Only £4.60
    TransPennine Only £4.70
    Any Permitted £6.80

    Anytime Day Return
    Northern Only £6.40
    TransPennine Only £6.50
    Any Permitted £8.70
     
    Last edited: 14 Mar 2018
  25. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Or get rid of the spat and reduce the Any Permitted fares to say £12.50 and £17. More passengers and less faff.

    When will the railway start seriously trying to get people out of cars on the M62 and stop the petty spatting amongst themselves?

    It's as bad as some bus companies trying to poach off each other in an ever-declining market rather than trying to grow the market.
     
    Last edited: 14 Mar 2018
  26. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    It is within the power of TransPennine to do just that. Of course, they aren't really interested in getting cars off the M62, or anything like that. They are interested in making more money for themselves. This course of action, which is totally ridiculous from a passenger point of view, contributes to that aim. Time for some regulatory intervention I think.
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Or just hurry up and get single-fare pricing in place. I don't care if every walk-up ticket is TOC specific if I can buy the one I want when I get to the station for each leg without being heavily financially penalised. I do care if the only way to get a reasonable price for my journey is to commit to the same TOC both ways or have to use Advances.
     
  28. bunnahabhain

    bunnahabhain Established Member

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    The biggest issue with these tickets is when Joe Average buys his ticket from Liverpool to Manchester, gets the cheapest one, puts it in the barriers and says "Where's the Liverpool train mate?" and 'The Man on the Platform' points him towards the next available train which is almost always one for which his ticket isn't valid! He then meets Guard Bunnahabhain onboard and ends up paying about 180% of what he otherwise would have paid for his journey, or sitting at some shack for up to 30 minutes to wait for the service that he's paid for. But it's okay, because the other TOCs not only got 100% of the original ticket, they probably then take another 30-40% of the second ticket too! So they're quids in!
     
  29. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    The other alternative is if the guards decide that because their employers have made the whole system so complicated they will not give a toss and pass any ticket they are presented with regardless of any TOC restrictions (provided its in date and for the right route). That way they avoid the conflict created by their employer and the customer doesn't get ripped off by the TOCs for making the system so complicated.

    Now I totally love TOC specific fares - I support them! - because I understand how the whole system of ticketing works and how railways run on the round (i.e. who operates which train). I know when I can use a TOC specific fare and when my circumstances dictate that I need a TOC specific one. However, most of the public don't and there is very little done by way of education on such things.
     

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