New Northern Ticket Machine wants cash - no cash slot!

[Puffing Devil]

I was playing with the machine to see what a Promise to Pay looked like; instead I was asked to insert cash or card. Unfortunately, there is no cash slot, as it's a new machine.

So how's this going to play out when the line becomes fully PF at the end of the month?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those new large-screen machines are garbage - I used a Chiltern one the other week, and the contactless pad was so insensitive that you couldn't use Apple Pay, you had to press a regular card against it *really* hard. The screen is also near useless in bright sunlight. They are a ridiculous idea.

There is very little wrong with the most recent small-screen Scheidt & Bachmann design other than the occasional trapping of tickets (which is a mechanism issue) - why oh why must the wheel keep being reinvented?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Got to agree with the screen issue - very hard to see when the sun is shining on it. Touchpad worked OK with my Samsung phone.

What is disappointing is that with all that computing power it remains a very dumb machine: no tickets from other stations, no tickets for tomorrow, no rangers or season tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Got to agree with the screen issue - very hard to see when the sun is shining on it. Touchpad worked OK with my Samsung phone.

What is disappointing is that with all that computing power it remains a very dumb machine: no tickets from other stations, no tickets for tomorrow, no rangers or season tickets.

The existing S&B software can do all those things (except possibly Rangers/Rovers; Merseyrail issue theirs an odd way so their few S&B TVMs can do them), so that's just Northern failing to specify them correctly.

 

[Clip]

Had no issues using the large machines really in my time up north - seem good the ones ive used.

however sounds like they have forgotten to take the 'Cash' item off the one the OP mentions so maybe tweet them to let them know and a simple remote fix should be simple enough for them to do.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Had no issues using the large machines really in my time up north - seem good the ones ive used.

however sounds like they have forgotten to take the 'Cash' item off the one the OP mentions so maybe tweet them to let them know and a simple remote fix should be simple enough for them to do.

They are OK - just not when you have the sun on your back and the wrong software.

Reply to a tweet:

This is because it is a generic software that is on all ticket machines. I will pass this on to be looked into.
​

So we'll see!

 

[Clip]

They are OK - just not when you have the sun on your back and the wrong software.

Reply to a tweet:

This is because it is a generic software that is on all ticket machines. I will pass this on to be looked into.
​

So we'll see!

I guess in the wrong location can cause issues.

Is that really what they said? Of course its generic software you just disable the bloody cash function on the install Useless sods

 

[Bletchleyite]

"This is because we haven't configured them correctly", they mean. LNR have no cash-accepting TVMs (that I know of), and none of them, funnily enough, ask for cash.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In one of the other threads about the TVMS / penalty fares someone I think said that it is as designed and only when you select cash as a payment option will you be told about the promise to pay tickets. I'll see if I can find the thread now.

edit - here's my post as a reply to that point in the thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-do-you-get-a-promise-to-pay-ticket.163412/#post-3435070

 

[cactustwirly]

Those new large-screen machines are garbage - I used a Chiltern one the other week, and the contactless pad was so insensitive that you couldn't use Apple Pay, you had to press a regular card against it *really* hard. The screen is also near useless in bright sunlight. They are a ridiculous idea.

There is very little wrong with the most recent small-screen Scheidt & Bachmann design other than the occasional trapping of tickets (which is a mechanism issue) - why oh why must the wheel keep being reinvented?

The S&B machines are really good, with a really easy to use UI (I can buy tickets in less than 30 seconds!)
However the Parkeon and FastTicket machines have a far superior printer!

 

[Puffing Devil]

In one of the other threads about the TVMS / penalty fares someone I think said that it is as designed and only when you select cash as a payment option will you be told about the promise to pay tickets. I'll see if I can find the thread now.

edit - here's my post as a reply to that point in the thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-do-you-get-a-promise-to-pay-ticket.163412/#post-3435070

Unfortunately our new machine goes straight from ticket selection to payment - asking you to insert Card or Cash, no chance to select a method.

 

[Clip]

In one of the other threads about the TVMS / penalty fares someone I think said that it is as designed and only when you select cash as a payment option will you be told about the promise to pay tickets. I'll see if I can find the thread now.

edit - here's my post as a reply to that point in the thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-do-you-get-a-promise-to-pay-ticket.163412/#post-3435070

had forgotten about that but after seeing puffing devils latest post on it theyve obviously not flicked a switch somewhere on install.

these machines are great for wheel chair users too as a press of that button brings everything down to the lower half of the acreen as i found out today

 

[WelshBluebird]

Unfortunately our new machine goes straight from ticket selection to payment - asking you to insert Card or Cash, no chance to select a method.

*bangs head against desk*

And yet those of us who were skeptical of Northern being able to run a fair and sensible penalty fares scheme were told we should give them the benefit of the doubt when we raised objections about the scheme when it was first announced!

 

[Clip]

*bangs head against desk*

And yet those of us who were skeptical of Northern being able to run a fair and sensible penalty fares scheme were told we should give them the benefit of the doubt when we raised objections about the scheme when it was first announced!

Erm, its one machine reported so far that the contractors haven't set up correctly no need for the toldyousos just yet

 

[mallard]

so that's just Northern failing to specify them correctly.

Oh please. It's because they know they'll make more money if they make things like rovers and season tickets harder to purchase. Let's not give these companies the benefit of the doubt; they're not in the business of reciprocating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh please. It's because they know they'll make more money if they make things like rovers and season tickets harder to purchase. Let's not give these companies the benefit of the doubt; they're not in the business of reciprocating.

TBH my observation of Northern (and Arriva generally) is that they are not competent enough to actually wilfully decide to do that.

 

[island]

I think Hanlon’s Razor is relevant here.

 

[paddington]

I did some roving around the northern network this week - got a PtP from East Didsbury but couldn't get one and nowhere to insert cash at many ticket machines along the Rose Hill line

 

[mallard]

TBH my observation of Northern (and Arriva generally) is that they are not competent enough to actually wilfully decide to do that.

If Northern (and other TOCs) even occasionally made "mistakes" (apart from operational issues) that cost them money, rather than very consistently making "mistakes" that increase revenue, I might be persuaded to give them the benefit of the doubt. As it is, even if incompetence is the original cause of the issue, the fact that it increases revenue certainly contributes to the motivation (or lack of) to address it. Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Quite often in these cases it's not the TOC making the mistake it's the supplier. As an example I know of one TOC's brand new fleet of TVMs that was rolled out with the note loader boxes set up to take Euros only.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Quite often in these cases it's not the TOC making the mistake it's the supplier. As an example I know of one TOC's brand new fleet of TVMs that was rolled out with the note loader boxes set up to take Euros only.

Assuming the ToC is responsible for managing the station, should they not test the TVMs after they are installed before enabling them for customers to use? Sure such a fault isn't the ToC's mistake, but if a TVM went into usage only accepting Euros, then the ToC needs to shoulder some of the blame for not checking it works as it should too.

 

[Clip]

Assuming the ToC is responsible for managing the station, should they not test the TVMs after they are installed before enabling them for customers to use? Sure such a fault isn't the ToC's mistake, but if a TVM went into usage only accepting Euros, then the ToC needs to shoulder some of the blame for not checking it works as it should too.

They would only check that they are working from the back office - Even when a staff member goes to fill it up for the first time they wouldnt really test what currency it was accepting as you would think it was set up correctly.

 

[Bantamzen]

I was playing with the machine to see what a Promise to Pay looked like; instead I was asked to insert cash or card. Unfortunately, there is no cash slot, as it's a new machine.

So how's this going to play out when the line becomes fully PF at the end of the month?

The TVMs in live PF zones print P2Ps when the cash option is selected. Its being running for 8 months on the Aire & Wharfe services in West Yorkshire, so don't worry!

 

[najaB]

Sure such a fault isn't the ToC's mistake, but if a TVM went into usage only accepting Euros, then the ToC needs to shoulder some of the blame for not checking it works as it should too.

I agree that they should apologise for any inconvenience but, presuming the contract was correctly specified (i.e. "supply, install, and test"), then the blame is the contractor's.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The TVMs in live PF zones print P2Ps when the cash option is selected. Its being running for 8 months on the Aire & Wharfe services in West Yorkshire, so don't worry!

Unless they update the machine, there is no cash option..... It goes straight to "Insert Cash or Card", without a cash slot and no chance to print a P2P

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless they update the machine, there is no cash option..... It goes straight to "Insert Cash or Card", without a cash slot and no chance to print a P2P

That's typical modern day IT for you (and I work in the industry) - they expect end users to be the testers. Which would be fine if there was, like most agile modern-day small IT based companies (the likes of Monzo Bank, say), if there was a way to report issues that would be listened to and fixed quickly.

(The railway would be a much nicer thing to use if they actually did some proper incident and problem management on issues rather than just chucking out RTVs and empty apologies)

 

[Wallsendmag]

Assuming the ToC is responsible for managing the station, should they not test the TVMs after they are installed before enabling them for customers to use? Sure such a fault isn't the ToC's mistake, but if a TVM went into usage only accepting Euros, then the ToC needs to shoulder some of the blame for not checking it works as it should too.

It was tested by the TOC concerned and the error was found. There are multiple instances though of overnight data feed updates that change the results the TVMs display. It's not always possible to be stood on a station platform at 0200 testing machines, unfortunately for me sometimes it is.

 

[Bantamzen]

Unless they update the machine, there is no cash option..... It goes straight to "Insert Cash or Card", without a cash slot and no chance to print a P2P

When the FP fines came into effect here the TVM updated overnight.

That's typical modern day IT for you (and I work in the industry) - they expect end users to be the testers. Which would be fine if there was, like most agile modern-day small IT based companies (the likes of Monzo Bank, say), if there was a way to report issues that would be listened to and fixed quickly.

(The railway would be a much nicer thing to use if they actually did some proper incident and problem management on issues rather than just chucking out RTVs and empty apologies)

You mean you don't force, erm test your systems on end users?

Seriously though, as a developer I have long come to learn that with the best will in the world, beta testing never gives you everything you need for a near fully tested release. It's only when the application goes out into the wild that people start to really feedback issues, with beta users seemingly more forgiving of little bugs and even though they are asked to don't always report them when they should.

And to be fair to Northern when the FP was rolled out here, they did respond to feedback about niggles with the TVM updates and of course didn't enforce the FP system with an iron fist, probably aware that this was in effect a public beta of the system.

 

[Starmill]

And yet those of us who were skeptical of Northern being able to run a fair and sensible penalty fares scheme were told we should give them the benefit of the doubt when we raised objections about the scheme when it was first announced!

Exactly. Unfortunately there are still some people who will call white black in order to defend Northern.

These ticket machines have been rolled out over the past couple of years - these issues should all have been sorted before that process began.

The fact that there isn't a button on the first page after 'buy tickets' to type in your destination is probably the biggest problem. You have to know that you need to select 'Popular Destinations' first and only then does the button to type in your destination appear. I raised this when these machines first came about years ago, and no other type of machine does it. Still, nothing has been changed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You mean you don't force, erm test your systems on end users?

Seriously though, as a developer I have long come to learn that with the best will in the world, beta testing never gives you everything you need for a near fully tested release. It's only when the application goes out into the wild that people start to really feedback issues, with beta users seemingly more forgiving of little bugs and even though they are asked to don't always report them when they should.

This is a fair point - but TOCs of course don't make it easy to report things and get them actually dealt with, because their approach to customer services belongs in the 1980s - it is all about fending people off and bribing them to go away, it is not about actually solving the problems with the customer experience.

TOCs could learn a lot from the likes of Monzo. I'd love to see an Open Access TOC founded on that sort of principle.