New posters threatening car park fines at Preston

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by Hellfire, 11 Jun 2015.

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  1. Hellfire

    Hellfire Member

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    Posters have appeared at Preston station threatening £100 fines for various 'offences' in the multi-storey station car park including not parking squarely between the markings. The posters carry an NCP logo, something I've not seen before found that particular car park which I think was operated by VT themselves judging by the logo n the tickets.

    The thing is I understood that only courts can issue. fines and what should be on the poster is 'penalty charge'. Presumably they want it to sound more threatening.
     
  2. HilversumNS

    HilversumNS Member

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    Any chance of taking a picture of the poster for us to see?
     
  3. Hellfire

    Hellfire Member

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    Not back there until next week but I will then. Meanwhile, if anyone else goes through there in the meantime perhaps they can oblige. The posters are pretty prominent at the various entrances.
     
  4. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I do wish there'd be more of that. Lazy parking makes spaces useless.
     
  5. Johnuk123

    Johnuk123 Established Member

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    I agree, one thing that riles me is seeing cars parked at an angle in between the lines because the 2 spaces either side were empty when the driver parked.

    The driver has actually used 3 spaces which of course means little to them because the sort of person who does it couldn't care less.
     
  6. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    It's pretty common, as to the man on the street any large financial penalty for contravening a rule is a "fine". Our local Waitrose has a sticker replacing "fine" with "charge" in its car park, presumably after this was pointed out to the manager by a local pedant. On that sign, the wording and design are not "threatening" and the fine is only £20 IIRC.

    Even extremely polite and courteous signs such as this can make this mistake:

    [​IMG]
     
  7. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    Is any such action still legally valid if the wording informing you about it is incorrect?!
     
  8. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    I somewhat agree with that, though with a proviso: Can you definitely blame it on those cars? There have been a few times when I've been forced to park at a slightly wrong angle or strongly to one side of a parking spot because of the poor positions of the cars in neighbouring spots. I've then returned an hour or two later to find both the cars on either side gone, so it now looks like I parked badly for no good reason. I'm sure the same must have happened to many other drivers.
     
  9. Johnuk123

    Johnuk123 Established Member

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    Quite possible I agree, personally if it's a large car park I will park somewhere else rather than park at an enforced angle as It only encourages people to key or kick your car.
     
  10. Hellfire

    Hellfire Member

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    The crux of the matter is that a fine, handed down by a court, is legally enforceable.

    Council run car parks use penalty notices. These too are legally enforceable under whatever bye laws the council has to control parking

    However, private companies who operate car parks have no legal powers to force you to pay any penalty they issue. What they are actually sending you is an invoice, which you can either pay or not pay as you wish. The car park operator can take action in a civil court but would have to show consequential loss. If they could prove that your untidy parking deprived them of income from a space next door that could not be used then they might have a case in this instance. But, they would have to prove that to the satisfaction of the court. Given the costs of all this it's unlikely they will do so, particularly if the car park was not full.

    So, the threat of fines is all bluff and technically incorrect in this case. If you received one of these penalties and felt it was unfair then you just refuse to pay it and invite them to sue. or you could do, what a number of people have done, is send a token amount for any inconvenience caused.
     
  11. CyrusWuff

    CyrusWuff Established Member

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    As an aside, there's something of an oversight in the Railway Byelaws when it comes to parking, as they refer to the owner of the vehicle being liable rather than the registered keeper, which may not be the same person, and ownership isn't recorded by the DVLA...

    Incidentally, car parks on railway owned land are not "relevant land" for the purposes of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 as Byelaws apply, so enforcement would have to be through the Magistrates Courts...but the PPCs who manage the car parks on behalf of the TOCs don't want you to know that.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2015
  12. Kristofferson

    Kristofferson Established Member

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    Yeah, this. Never pay up unless it's a council.
     
  13. DeeGee

    DeeGee Member

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    Where in God's name do you live that vigilante car park users dole out summary keyings to cars which are parked on the skew?
     
  14. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    (IANAL, just curious): Presumably such an invoice could only be issued if an agreement to the price and conditions of a service had been made between the motorist and car park owner? I'm surprised if one can refuse to pay for something simply on the grounds that one finds it unreasonable (and there's no loss to the service provider).

    If there is no such agreement made, or in the case of a "no parking" notice, the landowner could sue for trespass - though again they would have to show what the loss to them is.

    So it seems someone could park outside my house, or dump a load of rusty old anvils in my garden, and there's nothing I could do?
     
  15. Johnuk123

    Johnuk123 Established Member

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    Fenland, which as most people know holds the world record for car rage.
     
  16. Hellfire

    Hellfire Member

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    Most car parks have loads of small print which say that your purchase of a ticket means you accept all the terms and conditions....even if you haven't actually seen them. However any penalty has to be reasonable and I think most people would argue that £100 is hardly reasonable. There have been plenty of cases where people have either refused to pay or sent a token amount of money as a small sum of compensation to the car park contractor for what is technically a breach of contract. Most operators are not going to brief lawyers to sue in the civil courts. This Telegraph article explains it all

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/money-saving-tips/10995722/Do-you-have-to-pay-car-park-fines.html

    If the road outside your house is a public road and not subject to any restrictions, such as a residents parking area, then anyone can park outside your house. If someone dumps a load of anvils in your garden then they contravene the Environmental Protection Act 1990, ss.33, 34 and 59. That's a criminal offence.
     
  17. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

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    Don't forget that railway car parks are covered by the Byelaws, which could complicate things...
     
  18. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    Corrected that for you...

    Having seen cases on other site (Pepipoo, MSE) Private Parking Companies (PPCs) enforcing railway car parks often seem to want to have their cake and eat it. PPCs wish to threaten to make use of the byelaws when it suits them but also to follow civil procedures when that suits them... worth looking at those other sites should you ever be caught out!
     
    Last edited: 12 Jun 2015
  19. DaleCooper

    DaleCooper Established Member

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    Of course there is a foolproof, legal and morally acceptable way to avoid any parking penalties or fines. Can anyone guess what it is?
     
  20. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Is it a close relation of "how to avoid speeding tickets" and "how to avoid going to jail for burglary"?
     
  21. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Thanks for the reply Hellfire.

    I was thinking of someone parking on my driveway (or outside the many offices etc which warn people not to park there) - I wouldn't like it, but what is the loss to me?

    Good to know I can do something about those pesky anvil dumpers. Who decides if something is waste though - could a parked car be waste if it's rusty enough? :lol:
     
  22. DownSouth

    DownSouth Established Member

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    Ooh, I know the answer, pick me!

    Is it get away so fast you can't get caught :p
     
  23. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    Walk? :|
     
  24. DownSouth

    DownSouth Established Member

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    Genuine question out of curiosity - is jaywalking an offence in Britain?
     
  25. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    No, and it has never been. Pedestrians are only prohibited on Motorways and other roads with orders specifically banning them
     
  26. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    Who actually owns the car-park in this case?

    NCP sometimes operate car-parks on behalf of local authorities. The one that springs to mind is the Queens Road Car Park in Reading which is owned by Reading Borough Council but operated by NCP under contract.
     
  27. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    A number of other websites suggest that your certainty is about as well placed as the certainty that all rail staff clearly understand the conditions associated with all tickets and never wrongly penalise travellers.....
     
  28. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    It's not unusual really - I am aware of a local residents car park with individually allocated and owned spaces. One day someone decided they'd leave their car there for several days blocking someone's space which it would appear caused all sorts of trouble. On their return it appeared that unfortunately a vandal had put a brick through the rear windscreen of the car in question and the owner, on being informed by the police and insurers to go door stepping, was most surprised to find out that no one had heard or seen a thing.

    Funnily enough he never did come back ! Sometimes people are driven to vigilante action by a feeling of powerlessness via the official channels I guess!
     
  29. cool110

    cool110 Member

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    Of course, drive a Bond car with revolving number plates.
     
  30. Hellfire

    Hellfire Member

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    The car park tickets and relevant notices always used to just carry the VT logo. However, these new notices have both the VT and the NCP logo. No idea who owns the car park. Possibly leased from Network Rail? The problem is you don't know who owns anything these days.

    i don't know whether railway bylaws apply to it. Does Network Rail have to run a car park for that to happen?
     
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