Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, she should have been prosecuted.
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New Scottish COVID-19 Restrictions 07/10/2020
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Yes, she should have been prosecuted.
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bramling
Veteran Member
I have to say I’m sick of hearing about Christmas full stop. As someone who doesn’t really celebrate it, works it pretty much every year as it’s not worth getting involved in the bunfight over who gets what days off, and this year in particular will be working pretty much every day of it bar Christmas Day itself, please forgive me for not wanting the strategy for the next two months and the whole of the first part of 2021 to revolve around providing some kind of Christmas.
Most people have already accepted that it’s going to be a rough one. Ominously my local Tesco Extra were erecting a massive marquee when I was there a couple of days ago, which is designed to provide a covered queuing system to cater for what they foresee to be a troublesome period. Meanwhile people *will* ignore restrictions and go to see relatives and the like, just like many people have been doing all along. The police will just do what they’re already doing - break up any raves or big parties, and ignore the rest.
What happened next?... hasn’t resigned still in a job, Met Police have passed case onto Police Scotland and oh look it seems to have disappeared without a trace, had this been joe public police be over the person, media have a field day and person thrown a book.
Oh look this is what’s happening in real-time
DustyBin
Established Member
I enjoy Christmas but totally agree that the strategy for the next 5/6 months can't revolve around one day. To be honest it feels like the goverment are simply using it as a carrot (or stick to beat us with depending) in order to get the population to comply with the restrictions. Personally I find it rather insulting; I'd prefer that they saved my industry and job rather than saved Christmas....
That would be a disaster for an economy that is already on its knees.
DustyBin
Established Member
Yes, as per my previous post my main concern at the minute is the total collapse of the industry I work in, not Christmas. I expect there are millions out there who'd agree!
scotrail158713
Established Member
Yep. A couple of people I’ve spoken to have said “but Sturgeon has fired her from the SNP”, as if that’s all that needs done.
Yes - that’s one part of it, but, as you say, she’s committed a criminal offence and, IMO, should really be made an example of.
This paper has been thoroughly rebutted in the appropriate threads.
Yet nothing gets done, but as I say had this been a member of the public doing this expect a big media circus and then have Sturgeon make a fool of you (wait this happened too... was Aberdeen and its players)...
Don't get me wrong here I know some of MP's of Westminster as just as bad but it seems to a degree it gets dealt with, up here it just seems any wrongdoing by them (MP's), a slapped wrist or golden handshake and goodbye!
DustyBin
Established Member
Ah yes, "over-reliance on an evidence-based medicine approach" is my personal favourite bit!
Not clear that assertion is true at all.
Face masks: what the data say
The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough?www.nature.com
Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus
We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.www.ucsf.edu
We've been through these on other threads already - they don't stand up to any scrutiny at all. Go and have a look (think it was the face masks thread) - there's no point in going through it all yet again.
It does seem that every time this comes up someone has to google 'face mask evidence' or similar and copy and paste the first links that come up.
102 fan
Member
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I don't particularly care about Christmas, but I can tell you as a Grandfather married to a devoted Grandmother, it's hard to forget about Christmas.
kristiang85
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Someone just brought the Scottish hospital data to my attention. You can look at it yourself here: https://scotland.shinyapps.io/phs-covid-wider-impact
Go to summary trends - hospital admissions - all. This shows 2020 hospital admissions (black) vs the average 2018/2019 (green). Apart from a brief time in March, there was no rise above the average in 2020. And even that was due to a dip in the 2018/19 line rather than a rise in the 2020 line.
The second graph on that page (which I've attached here as a screenshot) is more stark as it shows the % compared to normal. Again, 2020 has been a very quiet year in hospitals for Scotland!
Now, for fairness, do click on Excess Mortality too. This shows that, apart from April-May, the excess mortality is right on the average (as it is for the UK in general). Given hospital admissions didn't really go up in April, you do wonder if that excess mortality might have been less had people been encouraged to go to healthcare - but that is just my thoughts, i might be wrong on that. I've also posted a screenshot of the % graph here.
But overall, since spring, is there any evidence in Scotland that warrants the shutdown of huge swathes of the country and crippling economic impact for people and business? (in the name of protecting the NHS). This is from official Scottish data too.
Go to summary trends - hospital admissions - all. This shows 2020 hospital admissions (black) vs the average 2018/2019 (green). Apart from a brief time in March, there was no rise above the average in 2020. And even that was due to a dip in the 2018/19 line rather than a rise in the 2020 line.
The second graph on that page (which I've attached here as a screenshot) is more stark as it shows the % compared to normal. Again, 2020 has been a very quiet year in hospitals for Scotland!
Now, for fairness, do click on Excess Mortality too. This shows that, apart from April-May, the excess mortality is right on the average (as it is for the UK in general). Given hospital admissions didn't really go up in April, you do wonder if that excess mortality might have been less had people been encouraged to go to healthcare - but that is just my thoughts, i might be wrong on that. I've also posted a screenshot of the % graph here.
But overall, since spring, is there any evidence in Scotland that warrants the shutdown of huge swathes of the country and crippling economic impact for people and business? (in the name of protecting the NHS). This is from official Scottish data too.
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bramling
Veteran Member
I think that’s exactly what’s going on - “obey the rules and it’ll be over in time for Christmas”, a bit like the send it packing within 12 weeks.
I don’t think Boris really cares about making false promises any more, if he ever did in the first place, it’s becoming quite apparent his focus is now on his post-PM life. There’s some interesting stories in some of the papers this week which complement some of the murmurings we’ve heard about him not liking the role and wanting to quit, including a suggestion that he’s not earning enough.
I agree, however it’s even harder to lose jobs and livelihoods in the meantime, which is the implication of a “let’s lock down harder so we can ease off for Christmas” strategy.
What’s going to happen, some kind of Eat Out To Help Celebrate Christmas scheme for a few days, followed by a litany of restrictions again right through til Spring? With the mindsets we have at the moment that seems to be the implication.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
scotrail158713
Established Member
Very interesting. These confirm what I’ve been feeling for the last couple of months.
Whenever I’ve seen the hospital statistics I’ve always been slightly sceptical of the risk of overwhelming the NHS because of them. If the national intensive care capacity is at risk at 74 people (22 October) then intensive care capacity is the issue - not covid.
kristiang85
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Indeed. And that's an issue every year - and I don't remember being locked down every winter. However I do remember lots of outraged headlines every year about the lack of NHS capacity.
Scotrail314209
Established Member
Five of Scotland's biggest hospitality bodies have commenced legal action against the Scottish Government.
The main reason for them pursuing legal action is that they are being penalized when most if not all bars and restaurants have been following the Government guidelines to the exact letter. In the letter that was written, they also state that based on evidence recently released in Northern Ireland, that the closure of hospitality makes an extremely minimal impact on the R-Number.
I back them all the way on this as the Government are essentially stringing these businesses along. Yes, they say it'll only be an extra week, but what if that extra week becomes an extra 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc?
It will be interesting to see how all this pans out.
The main reason for them pursuing legal action is that they are being penalized when most if not all bars and restaurants have been following the Government guidelines to the exact letter. In the letter that was written, they also state that based on evidence recently released in Northern Ireland, that the closure of hospitality makes an extremely minimal impact on the R-Number.
I back them all the way on this as the Government are essentially stringing these businesses along. Yes, they say it'll only be an extra week, but what if that extra week becomes an extra 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc?
It will be interesting to see how all this pans out.
Covid: Licensed traders threaten legal action over Scottish curbs
The move by five industry bodies follows the Scottish government's extension of temporary regulations.
www.bbc.co.uk
DustyBin
Established Member
Five of Scotland's biggest hospitality bodies have commenced legal action against the Scottish Government.
The main reason for them pursuing legal action is that they are being penalized when most if not all bars and restaurants have been following the Government guidelines to the exact letter. In the letter that was written, they also state that based on evidence recently released in Northern Ireland, that the closure of hospitality makes an extremely minimal impact on the R-Number.
I back them all the way on this as the Government are essentially stringing these businesses along. Yes, they say it'll only be an extra week, but what if that extra week becomes an extra 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc?
It will be interesting to see how all this pans out.
Covid: Licensed traders threaten legal action over Scottish curbs
The move by five industry bodies follows the Scottish government's extension of temporary regulations.www.bbc.co.uk
The other frustration is that breweries, pub company’s and individual pubs (as well as other hospitality venues) spent huge sums of money recently making their premises ‘covid secure’. The company I work for spent over £250k, and I know of at least one (larger) company that spent upwards of a million pounds. That, coupled with the fact that the vast vast majority of venues have adhered to the legislation and guidance makes the scapegoating particularly unpalatable.
Yes I couldn't really see the logic in starting at 0 unless it's just to "be different".
Having said that the English system is hardly logical either given that the lowest level is "Medium"! At least she has gone for a low level too.
Will we ever get to zero? (doubt it very much) but its strange in another way, why scrap the previous lockdown sets (this is for both governments here), surely it be easier just to say we'll make amendments in the falling category?
I'll still treat it pretty much as 1-4
Edit: just to add possibly the reason behind zero would be it'll be "non existent" in my opinion.
bramling
Veteran Member
Full masks to all the mystic megs who predicted Scotland’s system would just have to different to England’s. She just couldn’t bear to have something the same, could she?!
I note even her lowest tier (which allows 8 from 3 households outdoors) is more restrictive on social gatherings than England’s tier 3 (rule of 6 outdoors, from 6 households), so essentially I’ll not be able any more than 2 of my friends without breaking the law. This is just so depressing, and the fact she’s confirmed this is it until a vaccine, which may never come.
So much for her saying it was similar to England's approach, lets play a new game with all these new restrictions lets see which politicians will get caught out and nothing happens? Lets play Poltician Bingo!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
More restrictive for some, less for others. Under Sturgeon's zero rule our traditional family Christmas would be possible (it precisely fits - 8 from 3 households), under Bozza's it won't be.
Really, given that if it gets in the front door everyone in that house is going to get it (unless they'd be immune for some reason), a restriction on the number of households makes most sense. Trouble is that without compulsory identity it's hard to enforce.
Yet thats all they holding out for.... a vaccine, clearly they have forgotten with other viruses out there life ran normal but with this lets put everything on hold.
I wonder at Christmas how many of her own politicians will break the law? Again expect a slapped wrist for politicians but expect a fine for the public (it needs to stop all this)
bramling
Veteran Member
Let’s be honest people are going to do what they want over Christmas, the only enforcement will be if neighbours snitch on a big house party.
And there may not even be much of that, as the neighbours will quite likely also be breaking the rules and won't want to draw attention to themselves.
Also the polis will probably be having a bit of a do at the station, and won't want to be disturbed for anything so petty
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