New sleeper service?

[work-traveller]

You, me and every UK taxpayer. To quite a considerable sum.

I'll be using it in a few weeks time as a convenient means of travelling from central London to the Scilly Isles (+ ferry) and so will definitely count the weekend as starting when I arrive at platform 1 at Paddington. That being said, for practical reasons I'll be travelling back via light aircraft to Newquay, connecting to Flybe for onward travel. So only a one way trip on the sleeper.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Let's say a benevolent ROSCO gifts you the coaches.

Costs for a one way trip:

Track access, about £2k
Loco hire, about £2k
Staffing - minimum of 3 drivers, 3 guards, 4 attendants, total £2k
Train prep, cleaning, maintenance etc £1k
Fuel £1k
Overhead costs (management, marketing, accommodation, ticket commission etc), say £2k

That's £10k per night per one way journey, and it's being very optimistic.

Even if you could sell 100 tickets a night, that's £100 per ticket, one way. In a 30 year old sleeper coach.

But a ROSCO won't give you the coaches, and you won't sell 100 tickets a night.

That is just OPEX - add in set up costs , obtaining a Safety Case - getting Track Access rights (assume 18 months from recent experience) , security , part payment to BTP , safety auditing including random fitness checks , cleaning costs of stock and laundry etc. Catering ? Supervision......and so it goes on.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The biggest frustration is Leeds to the south west. However, that will be difficult to justify a sleeper.

What about a Scarborough to Weymouth via Bristol sleeper? All it needs is one sleeper coach and one standard coach + trolley and five crew. Could be popular.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What about a Scarborough to Weymouth via Bristol sleeper? All it needs is one sleeper coach and one standard coach + trolley and five crew. Could be popular.

How about Yarmouth - Carmarthen with the same rake ,initially via the North London Line (Pick up call at Ealing Broadway for homesick South Walians) - later on it could be diverted via the East West route and Oxford , with an extension to Aberystwyth when the line is re-opened thus giving valuable direct links from Acle to Tregaron.


Seriously - there was a suggestion for a Holyhead to Fishguard sleeper via Cardiff for a Wales franchise not that long ago.....

 

[Polarbear]

You could gut the 442 coaches & turn them into couchette and/or sleeper coaches....

Gets coat & walks away quickly......

 

[47271]

You think you're joking but there was a totally serious suggestion made recently for a Caithness to Edinburgh sleeper...

There was a thread about it on here but I can't seem to find it right now.

 

[Greenback]

How about Yarmouth - Carmarthen with the same rake ,initially via the North London Line (Pick up call at Ealing Broadway for homesick South Walians) - later on it could be diverted via the East West route and Oxford , with an extension to Aberystwyth when the line is re-opened thus giving valuable direct links from Acle to Tregaron.

I love it! Mind you, I'm convinced that the Gowerton to Acle flow would be massive, so the sleeper must call at my favourite, and now positively booming, station.

Seriously - there was a suggestion for a Holyhead to Fishguard sleeper via Cardiff for a Wales franchise not that long ago.....

I seem to recall a proposal for a Fishguard to Holyhead sleeper service. Ideal, perhaps for the armchair enthusiast who wants to do a loopthrough Wales, possibly starting from Ireland?

 

[Polarbear]

You think you're joking but there was a totally serious suggestion made recently for a Caithness to Edinburgh sleeper...

There was a thread about it on here but I can't seem to find it right now.

Apparently, it has been suggested elsewhere. Can only begin to imagine the subsidy level it would require!:roll:

 

[Greenback]

The economics of sleeper trains just don't stack up at the moment. That's why they are fading away across Europe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The economics of sleeper trains just don't stack up at the moment. That's why they are fading away across Europe.

Indeed, the killers are low-cost airlines and high speed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The economics of sleeper trains just don't stack up at the moment. That's why they are fading away across Europe.

They only made sense in a world where there much poorer air and road links , and where day time journeys by rail were longer than today's "Inter City" journey times - the IC125's for example were a major factor in reducing ECML sleeper flows from 1978 onwards.

Sleeper trains were also "cross subsidised" or had costs reduced by carrying newspapers , mail and premium parcels on the same train. The Paddington -West Wales service , for example left Padd with about 12 vans on (and 1 sleeper car for Milford Haven) , by the time it left Swansea it had dropped off a large % of the vans enroute.

Any sleeper train today has to survive on it's own revenue and pick up all the costs.

 

[Greenback]

Aye, the sleeper train market has been squeezed by budget airlines and by faster day time journeys/high speed trains and lines. The loss of overnight traffic and cross subsidisation has also contributed to their decline.

At the same time, people have become far less tolerant of sharing with strangers. That doesn't help, either.

Like restaurant cars, sleepers are only going to become increasingly rare and will probably die out completely one day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not just Europe - Malaysia have just got rid of theirs except one on the east coast line, and have insisted the Thais cut theirs back to the border to keep mucky diesels off their nice new "high speed" (100mph) line.

Notably an overnight service has been retained but seats only and a change at 4am. Yuck.

 

[Haig paxton]

The mk3 sleeper coaches should be redeployed after the new CAF stock arrives. Much better to use an asset than scrap it or watch it lie in sidings for years.

 

[The Planner]

Japan have got rid of theirs as well.

 

[route:oxford]

The mk3 sleeper coaches should be redeployed after the new CAF stock arrives. Much better to use an asset than scrap it or watch it lie in sidings for years.

Redeployed as what though?

There is no home for them on the railway. The only thing I can think of is to line them up in parks, in parts of the country that are in the midst of a housing crisis, alongside toilet and shower blocks and use them for emergency housing.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Redeployed as what though?

There is no home for them on the railway. The only thing I can think of is to line them up in parks, in parts of the country that are in the midst of a housing crisis, alongside toilet and shower blocks and use them for emergency housing.

Some of the wheel sets can / may be re-used. .....

(BR built far too many MK3 sleepers in any case - as the market collapsed more or less as they came into service)

 

[Harbornite]

Redeployed as what though?

There is no home for them on the railway. The only thing I can think of is to line them up in parks, in parts of the country that are in the midst of a housing crisis, alongside toilet and shower blocks and use them for emergency housing.

Or camping coaches...

 

[Chester1]

It's not just Europe - Malaysia have just got rid of theirs except one on the east coast line, and have insisted the Thais cut theirs back to the border to keep mucky diesels off their nice new "high speed" (100mph) line.

Notably an overnight service has been retained but seats only and a change at 4am. Yuck.

I took trains from Singapore to Thai - Cambodia border in November. I used the JB-Kuala Lumpur sleeper, the new fast service between KL and Butterworth and the sleeper from Butterworth to Bangkok. I agree with what they are doing, the new trains are very good even by UK standards and the international service to Bangkok is the only one that is actually neccessary. I believe KL-Butterworth was 8 hours by sleeper but was 3 hours 50 mins when I took the new evening service. I think there is a real possibility of the International Sleeper going into Malayasia again but the Thais would need to speed up their section (about 16 hours I think), so a train could do KL - Bangkok and be ready for a return leg within 24 hours to keep a daily timetable with two trains.

I used two sleeper coaches in Brazil, they were surprisingly comfortable, despite going by road in a big reclining chair I got a full nights sleep. I would pick it over a Malaysia sleeper train. If there is a market for more sleeper services in the UK it will be by road and not rail.

 

[tiptoptaff]

A fair few Mk3s SLEPs that are already out of service are used as volunteers accommodation on heritage lines, a few more may go there? Although even they are replacing them where monies allow with proper accommodation

 

[6Gman]

Plymouth, Bristol, Birmingham, Midlands, ECML, Edinburgh, Glasgow/Aberdeen. Using redundand Caledonian Sleeper stock.

Yeeeessss.

Problem being, arrival/departure times at each location. A sensible arrival at Plymouth means too early at Bristol etc etc

The Caledonian Sleepers serve some useful purpose because they're A to B (A being London; B being a Scottish destination). A Sc/NE/SW Sleeper suffers from being A and B to C and D.

 

[LateThanNever]

Yeeeessss.

Problem being, arrival/departure times at each location. A sensible arrival at Plymouth means too early at Bristol etc etc

The Caledonian Sleepers serve some useful purpose because they're A to B (A being London; B being a Scottish destination). A Sc/NE/SW Sleeper suffers from being A and B to C and D.

If I've understood correctly this used to be BR's most profitable sleeper route and given how confounded slow XC trains are, I'd certainly use it! Alittle late in Plymoth and a little early in Bristol would be a reasonable compromise!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yeeeessss.

Problem being, arrival/departure times at each location. A sensible arrival at Plymouth means too early at Bristol etc etc

The Caledonian Sleepers serve some useful purpose because they're A to B (A being London; B being a Scottish destination). A Sc/NE/SW Sleeper suffers from being A and B to C and D.

One of my "wish I had done it" was the sleeper from Soton to Glasgow which from memory picked up at Basingstoke.(I lived at Wimbledon at the time) - great idea , but did not work commercially. There was a service from Bristol to
to Scotland also - fell by the wayside too -banked up the Lickey incline.

 

[backontrack]

If you want a new sleeper route, then how about London-Carlisle-Dumfries-Kilmarnock-Ardrossan-Paisley-Greenock-Gourock/Wemyss Bay? It serves the ferries from Ardrossan to Islay/Campbeltown, Gourock-Dunoon and Wemyss Bay-Rothesay. Alternatively you could divide at a new stop at Mauchline and serve Prestwick, Ayr, Maybole, Girvan and Stranraer (and, via connecting bus, Cairnryan).

Daft I know, but...

 

[Harbornite]

If you want a new sleeper route, then how about London-Carlisle-Dumfries-Kilmarnock-Ardrossan-Paisley-Greenock-Gourock/Wemyss Bay? It serves the ferries from Ardrossan to Islay/Campbeltown, Gourock-Dunoon and Wemyss Bay-Rothesay. Alternatively you could divide at a new stop at Mauchline and serve Prestwick, Ayr, Maybole, Girvan and Stranraer (and, via connecting bus, Cairnryan).

Daft I know, but...

Would it run via the ECML or WCML where possible?

 

[backontrack]

Would it run via the ECML or WCML where possible?

I think WCML.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Would it run via the ECML or WCML where possible?

It wold have to go via the S+C , now there is no coal traffic (assuming the line gets re-opened in the next 2 months) , it would keep the boxes engaged and open on nights.

Talking of night shifts with not much to do - how about a sleeper up the Newport - Crewe line , could be Friday / Saturday only to give the Cardiff clubbers a chance to "come down" ....

 

[David Goddard]

The mk3 sleeper coaches should be redeployed after the new CAF stock arrives. Much better to use an asset than scrap it or watch it lie in sidings for years.

So very true. There's life left in the Mk3s yet, and a low cost overnight service could work. Like to many things, you have to generate demand through effective marketing. Even if such a service was to operate three days per week in each direction it could be a start.

Alternatively, once the new stock arrives, effective planning of portion working could see a five car sleeper set attached to the Scotland to London train detached in the midlands, then run to Exeter and attach to the Riviera.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So very true. There's life left in the Mk3s yet, and a low cost overnight service could work. Like to many things, you have to generate demand through effective marketing. Even if such a service was to operate three days per week in each direction it could be a start.

Alternatively, once the new stock arrives, effective planning of portion working could see a five car sleeper set attached to the Scotland to London train detached in the midlands, then run to Exeter and attach to the Riviera.

Sorry - the complications of the modern - John Major inspired railway stops dead in the tracks any innovation above contracted outputs.

Besides - with free road access , why not does Stagecoach or similar offer a low cost/ Greyhound type operation. They could do it with no regulatory or safety case b+++cks. ?

 

[CosherB]

The mk3 sleeper coaches should be redeployed after the new CAF stock arrives. Much better to use an asset than scrap it or watch it lie in sidings for years.

Redeployed on what exactly?

Most will be cannibalised for spares and scrapped. A few might make their way to GWR for the Night Riviera fleet or into heriage rakes as support coaches such as used on the Royal Scotsman and the Northern Belle.

I believe ScotRail have first dabs on the CS Mk2s.