New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[bb21]

They are very much not all down to infrastructure failures.

Leaving aside the recent industrial relations issues, which have only been 6 days of strike action and 4 days of action short of a strike, I'd anecdotally argue that the overwhelming majority of delays and failure to reach ppm have been failure of infrastructure one way or the other.

No doubt someone on here has access to stats that breakdown root responsibility.

Having said all that, the average rail passenger doesn't give a hoot whether it's a track circuit failure or a shortage of staff,they just want their train to turn up on time consistently.

Network Rail causes will always be in the majority, as infrastructure failures tend to cause much bigger delays and more extensive disruption. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that bigger incidents tend to leave a disproportionate impression, and they prop up more often in announcements by its very nature when there is a mish-mash of causes. Network Rail are certainly no angels, and are failing on many fronts, but they are actually hitting more of their performance targets than the TOC.

There are some very telling underlying measures which have deteriorated very quickly in the last 12 months for which Network Rail can take no (or little) responsibility. There is no hiding from that. Some can be explained by a range of factors outside the control of the operator, such as a jump in ill passenger incidents, but they can only explain away so much. I'm not even talking about anything industrial-relation linked, as that is a complete red-herring imo.

Stagecoach are by no means perfect. They left behind an operation in a very poor shape in many respects, and there is no doubt that First Group picked up a franchise in a far worse state than they originally anticipated. There is however no getting away from the fact that First Group are doing quite poorly atm.

Are things going to improve? Who knows. You are right however to your normal passenger, all that counts is that the train runs on time and reliably.

 

[Goldfish62]

There's a lot of fair comment there. I think the question could be asked of Stagecoach as to what exactly they were doing in their deep alliance with NR. Shovellor, as MD of the alliance, must have been aware of the crumbling state of the infrastructure. The whole thing just came across as a big publicity stunt under which, incidentally, performance deteriorated.

 

[CatfordCat]

Other than the recent strike action, not sure I've noticed a lot of difference in terms of what the train company can do. (I do Reading line to Wimbledon daily, changing at Clapham Junction)

The number of infrastructure failures has been on the increase, which isn't SWT / SWR's fault.

Revenue checking seems to have disappeared - I assume mainly due to the lack of door controls in intermediate carriages.

One thing I have noticed (although may have been one particular controller rather than company policy) is SWR seem less trigger happy about running trains fast to Waterloo / Reading if they start running late, turfing everyone else off at an intermediate station to wait an unspecified amount of time for another train.

 

[3141]

Tbh, life would be a lot simpler if there were only about 5 or 6 train types for the whole country.

But if that was achieved, wouldn't there be resistance to introducing any new and improved types of train because that would mean types 7, 8, or 9? So we'd be less likely to get new types of traction (battery or fuel cells), longer bodies, articulation, use of new materials, or any of that sort of thing. Standardisation has drawbacks as well as benefits.

 

[SevenEightNine]

One thing I have noticed (although may have been one particular controller rather than company policy) is SWR seem less trigger happy about running trains fast to Waterloo / Reading if they start running late, turfing everyone else off at an intermediate station to wait an unspecified amount of time for another train.

Maybe in the last couple of months, yes. I have been turfed out at Ascot not so long ago though. 50+ minute wait and a Delay Repay claim rejected, about 12 hours after submission (rather strange given that some have been waiting months for a reply). They certainly have a lot to learn yet.

 

[Wombat]

One thing I have noticed (although may have been one particular controller rather than company policy) is SWR seem less trigger happy about running trains fast to Waterloo / Reading if they start running late, turfing everyone else off at an intermediate station to wait an unspecified amount of time for another train.

I think you might be right; it still happens but it does seem to be less frequent on my route. I'm probably not a good assessor, though, because I'm a beneficiary of unexpected fast running so it's a mildly pleasant surprise rather than a major irritation.

 

[bb21]

Windsor side probably have been less impacted than the mainline side I think, partly thanks to the comparatively reduced service frequency and partly a reduced number of incidents, especially so when considering peak travel times, so I believe your experiences may well have some truths in them.

Aggressive service regulations on the Readings still exist though, with plenty of run fasts from generally Twickenham, Staines, or Ascot in extreme cases. Hounslow loop tend to be the poorer relations on the Windsor side.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Unless you have access to the Delay attribution data (which is only released publicly 6 Months in arrears) then any claims that TOC/NR are to blame for worsened performance are purely anecdotal.

 

[bb21]

Let's just say that when I speak authoritatively on any subject, I usually have access to more systems than most people are even aware of, and not limited to any single TOC.

Otherwise I usually stay well out of it.

 

[Goldfish62]

Windsor side probably have been less impacted than the mainline side I think, partly thanks to the comparatively reduced service frequency and partly a reduced number of incidents, especially so when considering peak travel times, so I believe your experiences may well have some truths in them.

Aggressive service regulations on the Readings still exist though, with plenty of run fasts from generally Twickenham, Staines, or Ascot in extreme cases. Hounslow loop tend to be the poorer relations on the Windsor side.

Between September and the end of the year I submitted nine delay repay claims, all of which were accepted. This year so far I've only had to submit two.

The latest National Passenger Survey shows that the dip in satisfaction is on the main line and the other service groups are more or less unchanged. This tallies with our differing opinions on this thread as to how SWR are performing compared to SWT.

 

[bb21]

Don't forget that Windsor side also had highly visible rolling stock cascades with new trains coming into service and/or visible increase in capacity, which generally go down well with punters.

On the mainline side capacity increase is much less visible with the same rolling stock having two extra cars tagged on. Regular passengers may notice a drop in the level in crowding but tbh the difference is small for most, especially during the peaks.

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't forget that Windsor side also had highly visible rolling stock cascades with new trains coming into service and/or visible increase in capacity, which generally go down well with punters.

On the mainline side capacity increase is much less visible with the same rolling stock having two extra cars tagged on. Regular passengers may notice a drop in the level in crowding but tbh the difference is small for most, especially during the peaks.

South Western Metro, which is mainline suburban is unchanged at 74, as is outer suburban at 77. The route that has always pushed up SWT's overall score, is long distance, and that's the one which has dropped, to 74.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I think we can all agree as rail passengers we expect the service to be a satisfactory standard for trains to arrive on time and get to the final stop on time and for the trains to be comfortable as possible but this is Britain, hardly Japan or Switzerland, so the bar shouldn't be set too high.

I visited Poland last Christmas, I travelled from Warsaw to Krakow by rail which I marvelled at their new modern trains which drinks were even given out in standard class for free. I thought if Poland could do this then why can't we though our intercity services aren't bad as GWR, TPE and East Coast are getting new trains and the HSTs are very nice & comfortable which ScotRail should do well with them.

I believe we on the SW network, outside London, have been quite fortunate that we've had 158/9s, 442s and 444s which elsewhere have had worse like 150s for long distance and Pacers. This together with a pretty good TOC in the shape of SWT therefore I didn't have much to complain. I admit I may have took this for granted as I haven't been subjected to for example Northern's clapped out trains. Happy to know Northern will be receiving new CAF trains.

Going from SWT to SWR may mean a drop in quality, as FirstGroup through SWR would be a different beast with different priorities that I can't see SWT turning their backs on rural stations that it was SWT that replaced class 450 stopping services with class 444 fast services stopping at nearly every station. SWR appear to behave like Ryanair, more keen about faster access to Waterloo as possible from stations with larger footfall, even ripping out some cycle storage areas for more seating. This is something I will have to get used to.

I have to remind myself SWT/SWR is really a London commuter service that manages to get as far as Weymouth & Exeter though SWT appeared more considerate with local/rural passengers.

Local rail networks perhaps should be brought in for South East Dorset & Salisbury-South Hants-Chichester by utilising more of 450s or new 701s, if run by SWR, that all local/rural stations can get more than 1 train per hour and these don't all have to go to London. The roads for example around Bournemouth are always terrible any time as the buses can get stuck in jams so this may be beneficial as it is certainly quicker getting from Poole to Christchurch by rail.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The route that has always pushed up SWT's overall score, is long distance, and that's the one which has dropped, to 74.

That's interesting, I didn't find the SWT long distance services, even using these locally, to be unsatisfactory. SWR now are worse as trains coming from Waterloo are more late than they used to be however I understand this is down to the NR infrastructure issues then we'll shall see if SWR's performance will improve once the problems get sorted out in time.

 

[bb21]

South Western Metro, which is mainline suburban is unchanged at 74, as is outer suburban at 77. The route that has always pushed up SWT's overall score, is long distance, and that's the one which has dropped, to 74.

I don't normally read these survey results, but that is a little bit surprising I must say. I know there are various factors at play but for main sub to hold it is doing rather well.

 

[lewisf]

One thing I have noticed (although may have been one particular controller rather than company policy) is SWR seem less trigger happy about running trains fast to Waterloo / Reading if they start running late, turfing everyone else off at an intermediate station to wait an unspecified amount of time for another train.

SWR did this today with the 0831 from Surbiton. It was 10 minutes late so they ran it fast to Waterloo. However, one thing that has changed for the better is that they arranged for the next train to make additional stops at Berrylands and New Malden so passengers could connect with other suburban services (and so the good folk at Berrylands weren't left with a 1 hour gap between services).

As a side note, the 0831 at Surbiton is the last train to stop at Wimbledon for 25 minutes as all the other services run fast to Waterloo.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I don't see any sign of improvement in respect of infrastructure issues, in fact things can only get worse once more trains are added to the timetable in December. Until the financial pressures on NR are reduced all I can see is a gradual deterioration of the infrastructure through over use and end of life expiry.

 

[wastedlife]

As a side note, the 0831 at Surbiton is the last train to stop at Wimbledon for 25 minutes as all the other services run fast to Waterloo.

I never understood why this is - one of several mysteries about the current rush hour timetable from Surbiton. I just don't get the point of having three non-stop services within ten minutes just as the rush hour is easing up. The 08:38, 08:42 and 08:48 are invariably each quieter than any train since 06:35; and yet between 06:41 and 07:38 there are only two non-stop trains to Waterloo that are both invariably rammed, and the 07:27 is uselessly timed to boot. Whatever else I think about SWR, the last proposed morning rush hour timetable I saw made a whole lot more sense.

 

[8J]

There was some pretty bad disruption on the Reading line this morning (after the morning peak) with 2 separate infrastructure issues in quick succession.

 

[Helvellyn]

Found a passenger update leaflet left on a train tonight, so they must be getting given out at the moment. I found it interesting that Andy Mellors directly acknowledges the performance issue. Without blaming SWT he states that performance had been getting worse for a couple of years, which is true. But he also states there is no silver bullet - effectively it will be a hard slog and they are working with NR to resolve things. That is quite refreshing - admit things are not good but don't promise a quick fix. They also then clearly highlight Delay Repay for 15 minutes.

If SWR can show improvement, then great they will be able to show this. But equally they are trying to manage expectations - it won't happen overnight.

 

[43096]

Found a passenger update leaflet left on a train tonight, so they must be getting given out at the moment. I found it interesting that Andy Mellors directly acknowledges the performance issue. Without blaming SWT he states that performance had been getting worse for a couple of years, which is true. But he also states there is no silver bullet - effectively it will be a hard slog and they are working with NR to resolve things. That is quite refreshing - admit things are not good but don't promise a quick fix. They also then clearly highlight Delay Repay for 15 minutes.

If SWR can show improvement, then great they will be able to show this. But equally they are trying to manage expectations - it won't happen overnight.

In fairness, when Stagecoach left, Tim Shoveller questioned why, when the franchise makes such a large return to the DfT in premium payments, so little had been invested in the infrastructure for many years.

 

[Goldfish62]

In fairness, when Stagecoach left, Tim Shoveller questioned why, when the franchise makes such a large return to the DfT in premium payments, so little had been invested in the infrastructure for many years.

Yes, his comment reminded me of Liam Bryne's infamous "there's no money left" note to the incoming government.

 

[43096]

Yes, his comment reminded me of Liam Bryne's infamous "there's no money left" note to the incoming government.

Although I suspect Stagecoach had made the case with DfT and NR for infrastructure investment which as usual fell on deaf ears. Another reminder that NR does not (and never has) understand who ultimately pays for the railway.

 

[hassaanhc]

Windsor side probably have been less impacted than the mainline side I think, partly thanks to the comparatively reduced service frequency and partly a reduced number of incidents, especially so when considering peak travel times, so I believe your experiences may well have some truths in them.

Aggressive service regulations on the Readings still exist though, with plenty of run fasts from generally Twickenham, Staines, or Ascot in extreme cases. Hounslow loop tend to be the poorer relations on the Windsor side.

The worst one I saw was when a 10-15 late Kingston circular (out via Wimbledon, return via Richmond) was run fast from Teddington to Waterloo, leaving a load of angry Strawberry Hill and onwards passengers with a 30 minute wait in the cold for the next train (which was also 10-15 late).

I find the Hounslow line usually extremely reliable, indeed if I have the time I prefer the longer journey via there when going to/from Z1 instead of using my local station Southall on the GWML (bus from mine goes to both Southall and Hounslow areas so I can go either way)

 

[spark001uk]

Anyone notice the SWR livery 450 used live @Hampton Court on the first Ant & Dec takeaway show tonight? Ran 1Q00 to Waterloo, showing "Takeaway Express" on the side PIS. Unit 450111 was borrowed for it, which is allegedly mid-refurb (the first 450 to get it I believe?), looks like interior getting done as well. Didn't think SWR had done any 450s yet, although getting one reasonably near completion and available for a live TV appearance was a nice bit of free plugging, they filmed a nice close up of the main bit of SWR branding near the cab end as well.!

EDIT: Soz just noticed there's an ongoing talk of it over in repaints thread. Looks like it starts about here.

 

[SWT_USER]

Bit of a mess this afternoon on the Windsor side due to lack of staff. Currently stuck on the 16.28 Windsor (still at Waterloo) after the cancellation of the 16.20 to Reading.

The 16.35 Reading left on time but unfortunately nobody bothered to update the departure boards on the concourse with the delay to the Windsor service, so I missed the 16.35 . Do SWR really not know they don't have crew for a service until after it is due to leave? Very poor.

 

[Goldfish62]

Bit of a mess this afternoon on the Windsor side due to lack of staff. Currently stuck on the 16.28 Windsor (still at Waterloo) after the cancellation of the 16.20 to Reading.

The 16.35 Reading left on time but unfortunately nobody bothered to update the departure boards on the concourse with the delay to the Windsor service, so I missed the 16.35 . Do SWR really not know they don't have crew for a service until after it is due to leave? Very poor.

I see it left about 1640.

 

[SWT_USER]

I see it left about 1640.

Indeed it did. Another delay repay claim on its way to SWR.

Full marks to the guard who got on and apologised for the delay and explained the reasons etc... but the boards at Waterloo should have been updated to keep passengers informed before the train was due to leave.

Are platform staff at Waterloo permitted to use the PA on trains?

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed it did. Another delay repay claim on its way to SWR.

Full marks to the guard who got on and apologised for the delay and explained the reasons etc... but the boards at Waterloo should have been updated to keep passengers informed before the train was due to leave.

Are platform staff at Waterloo permitted to use the PA on trains?

Indeed it did. Another delay repay claim on its way to SWR.

Full marks to the guard who got on and apologised for the delay and explained the reasons etc... but the boards at Waterloo should have been updated to keep passengers informed before the train was due to leave.

Are platform staff at Waterloo permitted to use the PA on trains?

I've certainly known platform staff to use the PA as well as release the doors.

 

[Helvellyn]

In fairness, when Stagecoach left, Tim Shoveller questioned why, when the franchise makes such a large return to the DfT in premium payments, so little had been invested in the infrastructure for many years.

I don't disagree. I recall someone at our depot sending him an email about delays when he was MD and being surprised to get a reply back. He made the point about how much was paid to the DfT each year and how he'd love to be able to invest half of that to improve reliability and grow the network - which would bring even more money in.

It does make me laugh that SWT wanted to go 10-car on the Windsor lines back in 2004, but it only took a dozen more years to deliver!