New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[HowardGWR]

A real coastal service would run from Weymouth to Brighton (or Victoria). An artificial divvying up of the franchises (historical legacy) prevents such happening.

 

[swt_passenger]

A real coastal service would run from Weymouth to Brighton (or Victoria). An artificial divvying up of the franchises (historical legacy) prevents such happening.

Don’t quite follow the Victoria option, surely a real ‘coastal service’, would carry on along the coast, combining the current east and west sections, which would of course require changes at Brighton...

 

[Helvellyn]

What I mean is there are four trains per hour heading west of Southampton.

I think it'll be five, no?

• 1 Fast Weymouth - 10-car to split at Weymouth.
• 1 Semi-Fast Weymouth - 5-car having split at Southampton.
• 1 Slow to Poole - 5-car having split at Southampton.
• 1 Slow to Bournemouth - 4-car from Portsmouth.
• 1 XC to Bournemouth.

Will be interesting in the Summer months though when the level crossings are down ten times an hour at Brockenhurst!

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it'll be five, no?

• 1 Fast Weymouth - 10-car to split at Weymouth.
• 1 Semi-Fast Weymouth - 5-car having split at Southampton.
• 1 Slow to Poole - 5-car having split at Southampton.
• 1 Slow to Bournemouth - 4-car from Portsmouth.
• 1 XC to Bournemouth.

Will be interesting in the Summer months though when the level crossings are down ten times an hour at Brockenhurst!

Yes, sure. I didn’t include XC in the context of this thread, but they’ll still be there. Reminds me that in the 2004 big change South Central were kicked off the route, said at the time to be because they got in the way...

Think you have a “Weymouth” typo in the first line by the way...

 

[pompeyfan]

Isn’t the Poole now terminating at Southampton? It’s hard to keep track of everything.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn’t the Poole now terminating at Southampton? It’s hard to keep track of everything.

The present Waterloo - Poole stoppers, the xx39s, still get curtailed at Southampton AFAICT.

There was then originally going to be a fast Waterloo to Poole, vice the current xx05 running in the opposite half hour to the fast Waterloo to Weymouth, current xx35, but that ‘Fast’ Poole train is now re-extended to Weymouth, however its rear portion will now split at Southampton and run semi-fast to Poole.

Current Waterloo departure times shown, I dare say they’ll all be changed in December...

 

[greaterwest]

Where does the second train per hour come at Branksome and Parkstone, if one of the Weymouth services is "fast [from Southampton] to Bournemouth then Poole and all stations to Weymouth"? I assume it'll be the other portion of the train?

 

[TEW]

Must be the faster Weymouth train as now that calls, with the second calls on the rear portion of the other Weymouth train, the Poole portion which divides at Southampton Central.

 

[pompeyfan]

The present Waterloo - Poole stoppers, the xx39s, still get curtailed at Southampton AFAICT.

There was then originally going to be a fast Waterloo to Poole, vice the current xx05 running in the opposite half hour to the fast Waterloo to Weymouth, current xx35, but that ‘Fast’ Poole train is now re-extended to Weymouth, however its rear portion will now split at Southampton and run semi-fast to Poole.

Current Waterloo departure times shown, I dare say they’ll all be changed in December...

Thanks for that, clear as mud!

Joking aside I think I’ve got my head around it.

 

[HowardGWR]

Don’t quite follow the Victoria option, surely a real ‘coastal service’, would carry on along the coast, combining the current east and west sections, which would of course require changes at Brighton...

Sorry, what I really had in mind was Gatwick. But such a train would probably form, pragmatically, a service to Victoria, so it would half empty at Gatwick then refill with GX type pax there, as a GX type service.

A fast train from (at least as far west as) Bournemouth, calling only at Christchurch, Southampton, Havant, (Barnham?) and Gatwick could make a step change in customer experience and cause big modal shift from car (saving car parking fee at Gatwick too). Gatwick needs far better through connections from the west, just as Heathrow needs them.

 

[JonathanH]

A fast train from (at least as far west as) Bournemouth, calling only at Christchurch, Southampton, Havant, (Barnham?) and Gatwick could make a step change in customer experience and cause big modal shift from car (saving car parking fee at Gatwick too). Gatwick needs far better through connections from the west, just as Heathrow needs them.

There is absolutely no chance of this because the railway is basically two track all the way - it would be impossible to serve all the stations at a reasonable frequency with this fast running. Is Gatwick really an untapped market from that far west?

 

[pompeyfan]

There is lots of airport traffic that picks up the cheaper Via Barnham route at Southampton, but not enough to justify trundling through places like Fareham. I agree more fast services would be great for lots of people, but you need to find a balance between them.

The Coast way to Brighton is a prime example, 2 fast services each way a day, and they’re likely to be swallowed up soon.

 

[swt_passenger]

As is often said you cannot provide a direct service everywhere. They could have extended the present Victoria back to Bournemouth (or further still), it’s been done before, but that is probably one of the most unreliable services in the Southampton area. So SWR/DfT went with extending the Portsmouth stopper to Weymouth, and this could have overlapped with the Victoria train from Southampton and Fareham to Cosham, to allow connections if timed right.

So what happened, people in the Weymouth area took one look at this great idea to provide connectivity along the south coast and demanded their 2 tph to Waterloo back. Probably because that is where the real demand is, and DfT now know that.

Concur with above regarding superimposing a fast train on the existing service patterns anyway - it would be near impossible.

 

[emil]

As is often said you cannot provide a direct service everywhere. They could have extended the present Victoria back to Bournemouth (or further still), it’s been done before, but that is probably one of the most unreliable services in the Southampton area. So SWR/DfT went with extending the Portsmouth stopper to Weymouth, and this could have overlapped with the Victoria train from Southampton and Fareham to Cosham, to allow connections if timed right.

So what happened, people in the Weymouth area took one look at this great idea to provide connectivity along the south coast and demanded their 2 tph to Waterloo back. Probably because that is where the real demand is, and DfT now know that.

Concur with above regarding superimposing a fast train on the existing service patterns anyway - it would be near impossible.

Southern services to Gatwick and Victoria are changing in May 2018 timetable. They will be leaving earlier at xx26 past each hour. Currently it's xx33 past each hour so only one genuine connection off trains from Weymouth or XC from Bournemouth.

 

[fairysdad]

Sorry, what I really had in mind was Gatwick. But such a train would probably form, pragmatically, a service to Victoria, so it would half empty at Gatwick then refill with GX type pax there, as a GX type service.

A fast train from (at least as far west as) Bournemouth, calling only at Christchurch, Southampton, Havant, (Barnham?) and Gatwick could make a step change in customer experience and cause big modal shift from car (saving car parking fee at Gatwick too). Gatwick needs far better through connections from the west, just as Heathrow needs them.

Real crayon time here for which I apologise (slightly!), but is there any crossover between the Victoria and Waterloo lines at Clapham Junction which would allow this nonexistent service to go into Waterloo?

 

[pompeyfan]

Real crayon time here for which I apologise (slightly!), but is there any crossover between the Victoria and Waterloo lines at Clapham Junction which would allow this nonexistent service to go into Waterloo?

From previous times this question has been asked, only if you do a reversal at somewhere like Kensington Olympia.

 

[HowardGWR]

Real crayon time here for which I apologise (slightly!), but is there any crossover between the Victoria and Waterloo lines at Clapham Junction which would allow this nonexistent service to go into Waterloo?

Why would one want to do so? (From where, is really my question as from anywhere west of Havant, one already can do and quicker).
Thanks to others for answers. I don't look at operational problems, only desire lines. The further one is from Gatwick, the more chance that one will take a train to it, if (a) it's faster than the car or coach and (b) you don't have to lug cases across footbridges, as at Southampton. One other point is this; imagine one has a flight at 0800 and one lives in Weymouth. Also, imagine one arrives at Gatwick at 2100. You want to get to Weymouth. Easy in the car and impossible by rail.

SWT is right about the impossibility of a fast service at present. However, a through one solves my point (b). Some catering on the train would help too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Southern services to Gatwick and Victoria are changing in May 2018 timetable. They will be leaving earlier at xx26 past each hour. Currently it's xx33 past each hour so only one genuine connection off trains from Weymouth or XC from Bournemouth.

At the moment it’s xx13 for the Victoria & Gatwick through, the xx33 is to Brighton. From May the Victoria seems pretty much unchanged, but varying around xx10 - xx14. It’s the Brightons that generally move to xx26. (According to RTT anyway.)

However I was suggesting that suitable services could overlap ‘if timed right’, in tacit understanding that current timings are not that good.

 

[swt_passenger]

Real crayon time here for which I apologise (slightly!), but is there any crossover between the Victoria and Waterloo lines at Clapham Junction which would allow this nonexistent service to go into Waterloo?

Not at all inbound from the Streatham direction. For most normal day to day purposes the SN and SW mainline networks are completely separate at Clapham Junction. This is why steam charters from Victoria towards the southwest join the Windsor side and run via Staines and Byfleet.

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe in this and many other threads HowardGWR completely exaggerates the demand. I say again, real passengers from west Dorset have allegedly come out and said that they want more trains to Waterloo, not trains along the coast, not even to Portsmouth.

 

[Adsy125]

With the proposed service pattern why does Branksome, Parkstone and Poole lose calls from the stopper? It appears that they will lose the direct services to the smaller new forest stations like Ashurst, Hinton Admiral and others. Surely extending it from Bournemouth to Poole as it currently runs wouldn't be that difficult. One service has to terminate at BMH then the semi fast that splits at Southampton could terminate at Bournemouth instead with the calls at Branksome and Parkstone picked up by the Weymouth Stopper, this would also give Branksome, Parkstone and Poole 3tph which would encourage people to use the quieter BSM and PKS.

 

[HowardGWR]

I believe in this and many other threads HowardGWR completely exaggerates the demand. I say again, real passengers from west Dorset have allegedly come out and said that they want more trains to Waterloo, not trains along the coast, not even to Portsmouth.

Taking your criticism on board, I have some data from the CAA Passenger survey 2016, which, at the mo, is apparently the latest.
http://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Data_and_analysis/Datasets/Passenger_survey/CAA Passenger Survey Report 2016.pdf

Table 4.3a shews 2.5 million pax terminating at Gatwick that travel on to the SW Planning Region, the third highest. The SW is not broken down, unfortunately, but the majority will be from Dorset and Somerset, I suspect strongly.
Table 5.5, more happily does break down the SE figure (includes Greater London) which of course is the lion's share of pax at 67%. The planning counties (includes unitaries) of Hampshire, has 2 million terminating pax, and West Sussex, has 2.4 million.

Overall, rail shares 34% of pax using Gatwick (their web site gave me that) and car has 36%. In fact, Gatwick does very well and this will have several reasons of convenience, cost and reliability to account for the fact that it is in this respect, the best performing British airport.

I think there is a lot of traffic to go for. I think SWR and SN should get together on this one. Of course you cite that most pax in the Wessex area want their London service, but this is existing users and occasional users. I would be after modal shift candidate customers for destinations such as airports.

Sending the south west coastal traffic to Gatwick via Clapham Junction seems strategically unsound. We have just debated the SWR trains understandably not stopping at CLJ i the peak but this tells the tale of why a different route to Gatwick would be a sensible aim. GWR achieves this with its reversal at Redhill, so their pax have a reasonable travel experience from the likes of Swindon and Oxford.

I just think that the silo mentality of these separate franchises tends to lead the RUS's rather than the other way around.

 

[JonathanH]

It would be better to build some kind of super interchange at Farnborough for Gatwick traffic from Dorset and Somerset instead of trying to do something along the coast for Gatwick - however going via Clapham Junction may still be quicker.

 

[greaterwest]

It would be better to build some kind of super interchange at Farnborough for Gatwick traffic from Dorset and Somerset instead of trying to do something along the coast for Gatwick - however going via Clapham Junction may still be quicker.

By the time you've reached Farnborough, Clapham Junction is only 25 minutes away, with Gatwick a further 30 minutes away. People aren't going to change at Farnborough and walk the 15 minutes through a housing estate to get to Farnborough North no matter how many trains you stop there.

 

[wastedlife]

People aren't going to change at Farnborough and walk the 15 minutes through a housing estate to get to Farnborough North no matter how many trains you stop there.

Housing estate?! Highgate Lane is one of the more salubrious roads in Farnborough, bordering open fields on one side and taking you right to the Price of Wales pub, which serves a fine selection of real ales. I can't think why anyone wouldn't want to walk down it with luggage to connect to an infrequent service to Gatwick.

 

[The Ham]

By the time you've reached Farnborough, Clapham Junction is only 25 minutes away, with Gatwick a further 30 minutes away. People aren't going to change at Farnborough and walk the 15 minutes through a housing estate to get to Farnborough North no matter how many trains you stop there.

Which is why there needs to be better connectivity between the three lines through this area.

Although I do admit that very few would be willing to make such a change, even with better walk distances.

Probably the best that you could do would be to build a grade separated junction between Frimley and Farnborough and a new station at Frimley next to the Macdonald's in the Farnborough Gate retail park as well as a new entrance/exit on the other platform to the existing at Frimley as then the change distance wouldn't be very far to walk. However that's a lot of spend for not that much benefit for people trying to get to Gatwick (although for other places it would benefit very beneficial and could be done anyway and just help those as a secondary benefit).

 

[greaterwest]

Housing estate?! Highgate Lane is one of the more salubrious roads in Farnborough, bordering open fields on one side and taking you right to the Price of Wales pub, which serves a fine selection of real ales. I can't think why anyone wouldn't want to walk down it with luggage to connect to an infrequent service to Gatwick.

I'm not saying it's a particularly bad road, but it certainly wouldn't inspire confidences in those who don't know the area. I've done the walk many times before (indeed it used to be part of my commute) but I can't imagine daytrippers/tourists would want to do so.

build a grade separated junction between Frimley and Farnborough and a new station at Frimley next to the Macdonald's in the Farnborough Gate retail park as well as a new entrance/exit on the other platform to the existing at Frimley as then the change distance wouldn't be very far to walk

That's almost certainly never going to happen, as nice as it would be.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think it was a through (fast) train I was after, but thanks for replies. Has anyone any idea what it's like trying to change at CLJ onto a packed SN train with cases. Not to mention dismounting at the SWR side Gap (deep and wide like the river Jordan ) which is quite frightening for infirm travellers with baggage.
Still the thread is about this new franchise so apols (sort of). One thing that recommends Dorset /Hants to Gatwick via Barnham at the moment is that an off peak return is less than half the price of going via CLJ. I've got an OPR for June, cost £42 for two (railcard), where otherwise it was £100. Isn't that ridiculous?

 

[infobleep]

I think there is a lot of traffic to go for. I think SWR and SN should get together on this one. Of course you cite that most pax in the Wessex area want their London service, but this is existing users and occasional users. I would be after modal shift candidate customers for destinations such as airports.

Sending the south west coastal traffic to Gatwick via Clapham Junction seems strategically unsound. We have just debated the SWR trains understandably not stopping at CLJ i the peak but this tells the tale of why a different route to Gatwick would be a sensible aim.

Most people want to go to Waterloo. In order to get passengers to Waterloo trains need to stop at stations. If you want to go to a station other than Waterloo and your not starting from Waterloo then if you get a joinery with a good connection that's a bonus. No connection even better.

By the time you've reached Farnborough, Clapham Junction is only 25 minutes away, with Gatwick a further 30 minutes away. People aren't going to change at Farnborough and walk the 15 minutes through a housing estate to get to Farnborough North no matter how many trains you stop there.

During peak rush hour Clapham Junction is currently 1 hour and 5 minutes away from Farnborough if you go via Waterloo or 1 hour 22 minutes to 1 hour 35 minutes or you don't. I'm aware why this is the case but I just wanted to add it all the same. Obviously if your travelling from further west you'd probably change at Woking and that might bring the times down a little as from Woking it's only 49 minutes to 1 hour 14 mintues, if you avoid Waterloo.

I think it was a through (fast) train I was after, but thanks for replies. Has anyone any idea what it's like trying to change at CLJ onto a packed SN train with cases. Not to mention dismounting at the SWR side Gap (deep and wide like the river Jordan ) which is quite frightening for infirm travellers with baggage.
Still the thread is about this new franchise so apols (sort of). One thing that recommends Dorset /Hants to Gatwick via Barnham at the moment is that an off peak return is less than half the price of going via CLJ. I've got an OPR for June, cost £42 for two (railcard), where otherwise it was £100. Isn't that ridiculous?

I believe there are ways to reduce the cost via Clapahm Junction but that's outside the scope of this discussion. I believe something was mention on the fares forum, so a search might bring something back.

 

[HowardGWR]

I believe there are ways to reduce the cost via Clapham Junction but that's outside the scope of this discussion. I believe something was mention on the fares forum, so a search might bring something back.

Thank you, I'll have a look in that thread. I discovered that one can achieve a similar journey time from Southampton to LGW via Woking and Guildford, your own haunts. However that is an extra change and is considerably more expensive than via Barnham, as is via CLJ. It demonstrates how slow the direct Southampton to Gatwick SN trains are (approx 42 miles per hour), but at least you don't have to change. SWR trains deliver you fast to Clapham Junction - but then the scrum on SN follows. I normally travel from the SWR stations on Devon/Somerset border (AXM and CKN) but these fares from Dorchester South via Barnham are so favourable.

What a faff though, all this searching of booking engines. I'll move my points to the fares thread so as not to hog this one. Hope it was interesting anyway.