New St locked emergency exits

[Bletchleyite]

It appears that the emergency exits at New St, confirmed by posters, are now electronically locked. I assume this is to reduce fare dodgers who sneak out bypassing the barrier.

As a passenger I have an issue with this, as there could be an emergency like a knife/gun terror attack which hasn't been noticed by the control office yet. Other than a prison (and not being a criminal I don't anticipate this), I object to being locked in any building.

Why is this allowed, and what was the justification?

 

[thealexweb]

By electronically locked what do you mean? That it has to be manually unlocked by a staff member remotely? If the fire alarm went off does it automatically fail?

 

[robbeech]

One assumes on activation of the fire alarm it would open. However I would like to see the documentation for this including the risk assessment done. I have refused to work in buildings where fire doors are chained up. This has been when the building has been closed to the public but open for contracted staff, that are working with equipment and machinery that whilst adequately risk assessed will increase the risk of fire to when the building is in normal operation and open for public use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By electronically locked what do you mean? That it has to be manually unlocked by a staff member remotely? If the fire alarm went off does it automatically fail?

Magnetic locks at the top. The implication is that it would be released by the fire alarm, but to me that isn't good enough and I am surprised it is legal.

 

[daveshah]

Are you sure there isn't a green break-glass emergency release next to them? That's a common arrangement for magnetically locked exits (also usually connected to the fire alarm).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you sure there isn't a green break-glass emergency release next to them? That's a common arrangement for magnetically locked exits (also usually connected to the fire alarm).

I didn't notice one - but what's the point in that for that type of door? Those are normally used where outside access is controlled.

 

[GW43125]

Magnetic locks at the top. The implication is that it would be released by the fire alarm, but to me that isn't good enough and I am surprised it is legal.

How's it not good enough? Fire alarm sounds, emergency exits open. Failing that, the break glass will just take the power off

 

[jon0844]

How's it not good enough? Fire alarm sounds, emergency exits open. Failing that, the break glass will just take the power off

Quite possibly with a loud alarm if used by someone to simply escape the station because of a revenue/crime related issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How's it not good enough? Fire alarm sounds, emergency exits open. Failing that, the break glass will just take the power off

Because there are reasons to want to exit a station very quickly (without faffing looking for a small break glass) that aren't a fire. Think knife or gun attack.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite possibly with a loud alarm if used by someone to simply escape the station because of a revenue/crime related issue.

A panic bar can just as easily sound an alarm.

Personally my view is that ALL building emergency exits should have panic bars or pads. I don't think having to faff looking for a break glass is adequate. If I didn't notice the break glass with a casual look, what of someone panicking? What of a blind person? What if it's full of smoke but the fire alarm has failed?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I didn't notice one - but what's the point in that for that type of door? Those are normally used where outside access is controlled.

They are normally used for electronically locked doors that may need to be opened un emergency, such as fire exits

 

[jamesst]

It appears that the emergency exits at New St, confirmed by posters, are now electronically locked. I assume this is to reduce fare dodgers who sneak out bypassing the barrier.

As a passenger I have an issue with this, as there could be an emergency like a knife/gun terror attack which hasn't been noticed by the control office yet. Other than a prison (and not being a criminal I don't anticipate this), I object to being locked in any building.

Why is this allowed, and what was the justification?

Easy, loads of other stations (London underground, Liverpool underground, Manchester Piccadilly) have exactly the same system and it works fine, I don't see why Birmingham is any different

 

[Llanigraham]

Magnetic locks at the top. The implication is that it would be released by the fire alarm, but to me that isn't good enough and I am surprised it is legal.

It is perfectly legal and I suspect you haven't realised how many public buildings you have been in that are so equipped, including hospitals, theatres, cinemas, restaurants etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Easy, loads of other stations (London underground, Liverpool underground, Manchester Piccadilly) have exactly the same system and it works fine, I don't see why Birmingham is any different

Must admit I had not noticed. But I really do not like the idea one little bit. It should be a legal requirement that the panic bar or pad is the only thing required to open it.

 

[Llanigraham]

A panic bar can just as easily sound an alarm.

Personally my view is that ALL building emergency exits should have panic bars or pads. I don't think having to faff looking for a break glass is adequate. If I didn't notice the break glass with a casual look, what of someone panicking? What of a blind person? What if it's full of smoke but the fire alarm has failed?

Sorry, but that is full of "what if's" that will all have been assessed and deemed improbable.

 

[John Webb]

Building Regulations Approved Document 'B' - Fire Safety, Section 5.11 (2013, Volume 2, Buildings other than dwelling houses) requires doors on escape routes to have only one means of operation. The use of electro-magnetic door 'locks' (more accurately described as door holders) is tightly controlled under the same Regulations, and requires that such devices fail to the unlocked on loss of power, on operation of the fire alarm or on failure of the fire alarm system. In addition each door must have one of the 'Green' emergency operating units next to it - this give the one operation required to open the door.
These 'locks' have been established for many years, and are in some ways better than panic bars - it's impossible for anyone to chain them up, as described by robbeech in post #3, or has been reported in several serious fires where life loss has occurred.

 

[furnessvale]

Surely the emergency exits being talked about are designed and located for fire purposes and are alarmed and released with that in mind.

I am sure there are many nooks and crannies on stations and other buildings where no emergency exit is present because there is no fire risk, but a person could be cornered by a knife or gun attacker.

Such a risk needs to be assessed as a separate matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the emergency exits being talked about are designed and located for fire purposes and are alarmed and released with that in mind.

I am sure there are many nooks and crannies on stations and other buildings where no emergency exit is present because there is no fire risk, but a person could be cornered by a knife or gun attacker.

Such a risk needs to be assessed as a separate matter.

I just don't like the idea of unnecessarily hampering escape just to stop the odd fare dodger making off. It just seems totally the wrong way round to me. (Ticket barriers don't give me the same feeling because they can easily be barged or jumped - though someone less able-bodied may well feel differently - certainly where they are remote monitored the "open" button should be large and prominent and a power failure should automatically release them).

 

[johntea]

Couldn't the same emergency exit be used to do a runner by the attacker?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couldn't the same emergency exit be used to do a runner by the attacker?

Feasibly, yes, but sacrificing those inside the station to allow him not to do so is not an acceptable policing technique (nor do the Police use it as one).

 

[LowLevel]

I just don't like the idea of unnecessarily hampering escape just to stop the odd fare dodger making off. It just seems totally the wrong way round to me. (Ticket barriers don't give me the same feeling because they can easily be barged or jumped - though someone less able-bodied may well feel differently - certainly where they are remote monitored the "open" button should be large and prominent and a power failure should automatically release them).

Ticket gates are only designed to be a visual deterrent rather than an actual physical one anyway. They're specified to be easily pushed open by a human for that reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ticket gates are only designed to be a visual deterrent rather than an actual physical one anyway. They're specified to be easily pushed open by a human for that reason.

True. I suppose it's more a case that if someone doesn't operate them correctly it's clearly apparent that they are doing something wrong and there needs to be further investigation.

 

[scrapy]

What if there's a knife attack outside the station and the only means of escape is into the station? Should all emergency access points be openable from both sides? How far do you go?

 

[mmh]

Must admit I had not noticed. But I really do not like the idea one little bit. It should be a legal requirement that the panic bar or pad is the only thing required to open it.

Did you try opening any of these "locked" emergency exits you're so outraged about?

No, of course you didn't.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's not that hard for an average person to shove a maglocked door open outwards (or even to pull one open inwards, for someone of reasonable strength)

 

[district]

(Ticket barriers don't give me the same feeling because they can easily be barged or jumped - though someone less able-bodied may well feel differently - certainly where they are remote monitored the "open" button should be large and prominent and a power failure should automatically release them).

Power failure or a station fire alarm activation will automatically open Cubic gates. As an additional safety feature, they are also designed that only a minimal amount of force on the paddles will cause them to open.

 

[driver_m]

You aren't locked in though are you at New St? Look what happened last time there was a panic like this at Euston. The tracks were used to escape by a lot of people. (When a vaper device caught fire) As many others have said here, you're going into the realms of not impossible, but infinitesimally small risks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you try opening any of these "locked" emergency exits you're so outraged about?

No, of course you didn't.

No, I read the signage placed next to them which stated that from date X they were locked.

 

[talltim]

I’m far more worried about the entrance/exit at Sheffield station that is regularly closed for days on end, with a poster board placed in front of it. As it’s a set of sliding doors I’m not sure if it keeps failing, but it does seem to (mostly but not always) coincide with very cold weather, my suspicion is that it is taken out of use to keep the ticket counters warmer. However it is a fire exit

 

[hwl]

It's not that hard for an average person to shove a maglocked door open outwards (or even to pull one open inwards, for someone of reasonable strength)

Not the ones I've specified! However most are only 300kg holding force and badly installed so easy to open as you say.