New stations - do TOCs [secretly] hate them?

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PR1Berske

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This is a bit of a broad question taken from a specific case so I hope it all makes sense!

Preston Council have published an all singing, all dancing planning document, in which they have pledged support to a new railway station at Cottam.

In the midst of telling them how much I support it too (though it's about a hypergazillion years too late) I hit upon a thought process that hadn't really occurred before. Do TOCs hate new stations being built? With so much of the modern industry committed to hitting punctuality targets and meeting goodness knows how many KPIs and similar, I can see why SomewhereRail Inc. might not be too happy having to add additional stops into its timetables.

I can see the other side - "TOC happy to serve its region!" - though the other seems more realistic somehow....Or that could be cynicism....

Anyhoo, is this a realistic observation or am I off piste with this? Would a TOC prefer keeping A-B without an extra letter being introduced?
 
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PR1Berske

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Thing is I realise this thread could go a bit....wrong.....I don't want to bash any specific TOC or owt like that. Just one of those Friday morning questions that might not make much sense :lol:
 

WatcherZero

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Tocs dont like serving new (or reopened) stations with few passengers as its slowing their services and potentially losing them more revenue than they gain. A new station that instantly had several hundred thousand passengers a year they would support though.
 

Tiny Tim

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TOCs, I presume, would support anything that they calculated would bring in a profit. Some years ago proposals for a 'Devizes Parkway' station were backed by South West Trains. Although this never got off the drawing board, SWT intimated they would even provide some financial input! If I remember correctly, First Great Western weren't interested; No doubt both companies had done their sums.

There's a closed thread on Devizes Parkway somewhere on this forum.
 

HowMuch?

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I bet TOCs love putting new stations between a main station and a junction, and then "forgetting" to put the new station in the routeing group.

Suddenly loads of routes (usual exceptions apply) via the main station are barred because of doubling back through the new station. RPI heaven! How to suddenly turn people into cash cows and lawbreakers.

Alltogether now : "It was Mrs Miggins' responsibility to read the entire NRCOC, Routeing Guide, Timetable (for mileages), and Network Map (for gotcha no-doubling-back stations) before buying a ticket".

Of course, people who follow the rules now have to change at the new Much Widdling On the Green and shiver themselves silly waiting for the one train a day that stops there.
 

tbtc

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Tocs dont like serving new (or reopened) stations with few passengers as its slowing their services and potentially losing them more revenue than they gain. A new station that instantly had several hundred thousand passengers a year they would support though.

That's it.

If the new station isn't expected to generate sufficient numbers to make it profitable until ten years of operation, and a TOC's franchise only runs for a further handful of years then they won't be very interested.

Also worth pointing out that a new station on an existing route (e.g. Lawrencekirk/ East Midlands Parkway rather than a termini like Ebbw Vale/Alloa) is that some of the passengers using it are going to be those who previously used adjacent stations on the route (e.g. Stonehaven and Montrose, in the case of Lawrencekirk), so they won't actually make the TOC any money (if anything they may make it less, if people are now travelling for shorter journeys).
 

telstarbox

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I bet TOCs love putting new stations between a main station and a junction, and then "forgetting" to put the new station in the routeing group.

Suddenly loads of routes (usual exceptions apply) via the main station are barred because of doubling back through the new station. RPI heaven! How to suddenly turn people into cash cows and lawbreakers.

Alltogether now : "It was Mrs Miggins' responsibility to read the entire NRCOC, Routeing Guide, Timetable (for mileages), and Network Map (for gotcha no-doubling-back stations) before buying a ticket".

Of course, people who follow the rules now have to change at the new Much Widdling On the Green and shiver themselves silly waiting for the one train a day that stops there.

Has this already happened?
 

tbtc

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I bet TOCs love putting new stations between a main station and a junction, and then "forgetting" to put the new station in the routeing group.

Suddenly loads of routes (usual exceptions apply) via the main station are barred because of doubling back through the new station. RPI heaven! How to suddenly turn people into cash cows and lawbreakers.

Alltogether now : "It was Mrs Miggins' responsibility to read the entire NRCOC, Routeing Guide, Timetable (for mileages), and Network Map (for gotcha no-doubling-back stations) before buying a ticket".

Of course, people who follow the rules now have to change at the new Much Widdling On the Green and shiver themselves silly waiting for the one train a day that stops there.

Has this already happened?

I don't know whether HowMuch? has an example in mind, but the first that I could think of is Edinburgh Park (so that presumably you cannot use Haymarket to double back between Linlithgow and Bathgate?).
 

WatcherZero

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A good exemplar of this could probably me Liverpool South Parkway, wildly considered a white elephant for several years after opening. It took 5 years before the services initially expected to call at it all did and half the passengers came from cannibalising people using previous stations, it was originally forecast to have 640,652 passengers a year from opening and have 700,000 a year by 2011, it took until 2011 to hit that intial opening forecast nevermind beat it despite the massive increase in rail usage during the decade since the forecast was made.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/new-stations-study/demand-forecasting-report.pdf
 

VTPreston_Tez

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This is a bit of a broad question taken from a specific case so I hope it all makes sense!

Preston Council have published an all singing, all dancing planning document, in which they have pledged support to a new railway station at Cottam.
There's no line through Cottam, is there? Don't you mean Westleigh/Savick?

In the midst of telling them how much I support it too (though it's about a hypergazillion years too late) I hit upon a thought process that hadn't really occurred before. Do TOCs hate new stations being built? With so much of the modern industry committed to hitting punctuality targets and meeting goodness knows how many KPIs and similar, I can see why SomewhereRail Inc. might not be too happy having to add additional stops into its timetables.

I can see the other side - "TOC happy to serve its region!" - though the other seems more realistic somehow....Or that could be cynicism....

Anyhoo, is this a realistic observation or am I off piste with this? Would a TOC prefer keeping A-B without an extra letter being introduced?

I thought that whoever would serve 'Cottam' would be happy to, after all a station in the West of Preston has been looked at for so long (Virgin have also rejected a proposal to open a station there) so it might just be that Serco-Abellio and First want the station but Virgin wouldn't dare set foot into a new station in the Cottam area.
Or, well, something like that.
 

PR1Berske

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It's the Sports Arena site:


 

VTPreston_Tez

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It's the Sports Arena site:



I live close enough to that I guess. To make it work they'd need to extend the 31A down Savick Way through the turning circle and down a new road which will also double as part of the Guild Wheel (or just start a new bus service altogether, but it will affect the 31/31A severely so that's a problem)
Back on topic, is that really the best location for a station? Westleigh has everything there that could be dreamed of: space, flat land, a major road linking the whole West of Preston, buses already passing...
And what does Cottam have? No room for platforms, no decent bus service, a rickety path to get down there or a gang-infested sports arena to traverse...is this really the best idea? :s
 

telstarbox

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There's no line through Cottam, is there? Don't you mean Westleigh/Savick?



I thought that whoever would serve 'Cottam' would be happy to, after all a station in the West of Preston has been looked at for so long (Virgin have also rejected a proposal to open a station there) so it might just be that Serco-Abellio and First want the station but Virgin wouldn't dare set foot into a new station in the Cottam area.
Or, well, something like that.

Would Virgin really mind one way or the other? The proposed station would be on the line to Blackpool North between Salwick and Preston so it wouldn't affect VT services. Even if it was on one of their routes it is unlikely that VT would serve the station as they run inter-city routes.
 

Clip

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I can't speak for many other new or proposed stations but what I will say is that Warwick Parkway was probably the best thing Laing Rail ever done for Chiltern. I know there was a business case behind it to prove they could build stations but my god,the place gets just rammed in the peak.
They have certainly taken pax from FGW at least. Probably the best 'new' station that has opened since privitisation in my view.



 

VTPreston_Tez

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There's no line through Cottam, is there? Don't you mean Westleigh/Savick?



I thought that whoever would serve 'Cottam' would be happy to, after all a station in the West of Preston has been looked at for so long (Virgin have also rejected a proposal to open a station there) so it might just be that Serco-Abellio and First want the station but Virgin wouldn't dare set foot into a new station in the Cottam area.
Or, well, something like that.

Would Virgin really mind one way or the other? The proposed station would be on the line to Blackpool North between Salwick and Preston so it wouldn't affect VT services. Even if it was on one of their routes it is unlikely that VT would serve the station as they run inter-city routes.

Well, Virgin would certainly be interested in serving another part of Preston to benefit intercity customers in the west of Preston.
I might walk down and take a look at the site later, it's like a 5 minute walk from my house the new station site.
 

John55

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Probably the best 'new' station that has opened since privitisation in my view.


How have you decided on the best new station since privatisation accolade?

If it is by the number of passengers there are some rather more successful stations around including;

Shoreditch High St 3.0 m (million)
Shepherd’s Bush 2.2 m
Luton Airport P/W 2.0 m
Conway Park 1.7 m
Brunswick 1.0 m
Imperial Wharf 0.74 m
Edinburgh Park 0.51 m
Haggerston 0.51 m
Eastham Rake 0.49 m
Lea Green 0.48 m
Warwick Parkway 0.45 m
 

tbtc

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How have you decided on the best new station since privatisation accolade?

If it is by the number of passengers there are some rather more successful stations around including;

Shoreditch High St 3.0 m (million)
Shepherd’s Bush 2.2 m
Luton Airport P/W 2.0 m
Conway Park 1.7 m
Brunswick 1.0 m
Imperial Wharf 0.74 m
Edinburgh Park 0.51 m
Haggerston 0.51 m
Eastham Rake 0.49 m
Lea Green 0.48 m
Warwick Parkway 0.45 m

Very interesting figures - shows how little credit the ELL gets (compared to everyone getting excited about the likes of Alloa!)
 

John55

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Very interesting figures - shows how little credit the ELL gets (compared to everyone getting excited about the likes of Alloa!)

Considering the population around them the figures for Hoxton, Haggerston, Shoreditch and Dalston Junction are poor. This new bit of the ELL has 12 trains/hour all day and isn't very busy.

Hopefully the money spent will be rewarded by increasing traffic as people get used to the old North London Railway route being open again but the first years traffic was not encouraging.
 

WatcherZero

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If your read the doc I posted above for a good number of stations opened over the last decade it compares their actual usage with their predicted usage which I think is the best measure of success, if you predict something to have a quarter of a million passengers and it does its meeting expectations, if you predict it will have 50,000 and it gets 100,000 then its vastly exceeding them.
 

tbtc

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What's the comparison for this bit of the ELL against south of Whitechapel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrey_Quays_railway_station

London Underground annual entry and exit
2007 2.456 million
2008 0 (closed) million
2009 0 (closed) million
National Rail annual entry and exit
2010–11 1.150 million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherhithe_railway_station

London Underground annual entry and exit
2006 1.309 million
2007 1.294 million
2008 0 (closed) million
2009 0 (closed) million

National Rail annual entry and exit
2010–11 0.687 million
 

asylumxl

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I feel that new stations in London/Greater London will always see heavy usage, given that the areas are so densely population in comparison to other places.

Luton Airport Parkway appears to have done well but I do wonder how much of that is down to airport related traffic. In term of commuter numbers, I imagine it'd be vastly lower than Luton (despite the better facilities) judging from what I see on the platform on my way to work.

It also doesn't help when the station is so poorly connected to the town by anything other than the shuttle bus to the airport.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Well, Virgin would certainly be interested in serving another part of Preston to benefit intercity customers in the west of Preston.

Really? I doubt Virgin would take a 5 minute + time penalty to serve passengers who would just go to Preston if it wasn't built anyway...
 

tbtc

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Really? I doubt Virgin would take a 5 minute + time penalty to serve passengers who would just go to Preston if it wasn't built anyway...

If Virgin have sped up the Glasgow - London service by omitting places like Crewe (and even Carlisle, Wigan and Warrington on one service) then I don't think that suburban Preston will be that attractive to them
 

VTPreston_Tez

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Really? I doubt Virgin would take a 5 minute + time penalty to serve passengers who would just go to Preston if it wasn't built anyway...

Or the unlikely journey from Blackpool to Euston calling at Poulton, Kirkham, Cottam/Westleigh/Savick, Fishergate Hill, Hartford, Tamworth, Nuneaton, and London Euston (wherever the GC service would go as they would more than likely serve the station.

I fully agree with Lampshade though. Westleigh's down the road and the site is perfect for a rail development and a level crossing so double deck Orbitals can finally run. Two birds with one stone.
 
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