New Steam Locomotive?

[matacaster]

After the success of Tornado and the promise of the 4-6-4, I have been musing (somewhat madly) to myself about what other possibilities there are for a new steam locomotive.

Current potentially high speed steam locomotives are restricted to 90mph, I believe, some through age (worry re breakdown and consequent problems for operators), some through perceived damage to their motion and valvegear (like Mallard) and also because of hammer blow damage to the track (all conventional steam engines).

However, step forward the Stanier Turbomotive. This was rather successful, it's very serious failing being it spent much of its life under repair awaiting parts. Assuming the design drawings still exist what would a modernised version of this locomotive bring to the party?

Potential for 125mph running (dependent on steam raising ability) as
- no hammer blow
- no conventional reciprocating motion
- no complex valve gear

- modern turbines used in ships, electricity generation, aircraft engines
etc are built to finer tolerances than in the 1930's, would give better
efficiency and would be much more reliable than in days of yesteryear
- turbine parts could possibly be manufactured at short notice by using 3d
printing technology and high tech, longer lasting materials
- it might be modified slightly to incorporate automated coal firing to make
copious steam generation more reliable and less painful

125mph would mean it would be able to fit into existing paths used by HST's etc.

Any thoughts?

 

[TDK]

After the success of Tornado and the promise of the 4-6-4, I have been musing (somewhat madly) to myself about what other possibilities there are for a new steam locomotive.

Current potentially high speed steam locomotives are restricted to 90mph, I believe, some through age (worry re breakdown and consequent problems for operators), some through perceived damage to their motion and valvegear (like Mallard) and also because of hammer blow damage to the track (all conventional steam engines).

However, step forward the Stanier Turbomotive. This was rather successful, it's very serious failing being it spent much of its life under repair awaiting parts. Assuming the design drawings still exist what would a modernised version of this locomotive bring to the party?

Potential for 125mph running (dependent on steam raising ability) as
- no hammer blow
- no conventional reciprocating motion
- no complex valve gear

- modern turbines used in ships, electricity generation, aircraft engines
etc are built to finer tolerances than in the 1930's, would give better
efficiency and would be much more reliable than in days of yesteryear
- turbine parts could possibly be manufactured at short notice by using 3d
printing technology and high tech, longer lasting materials
- it might be modified slightly to incorporate automated coal firing to make
copious steam generation more reliable and less painful

125mph would mean it would be able to fit into existing paths used by HST's etc.

Any thoughts?

Why would this need to be done? I always thought the attraction of steam engines was the historic value! To be fair 90mph is plenty fast enough.

 

[richieb1971]

At least one P2 is being built. I think thats what its called.

James May made one of the parts for it and its been made by the A1 steam trust, the same people who made Tornado.

 

[Peter Sarf]

"matacaster" have you got shares in Hatfield colliery then ?.

It would be nice to see if some designs that were cast aside as dieselisation came about would have worked. But its going to be costly and as others have said not so attractive to the enthusiast.

Perhaps, if the price of oil keeps rising, it might make economic sense to use coal. But this is likely to be in the form of power stations and electric trains.

I actually wonder about looking in the other direction. How about re-creating some of the very early steam engines.

 

[Chris125]

Mainline steam locos are normally restricted to a maximum of 75mph.

 

[steamybrian]

An "Atlantic Class" 4-4-2 is being built at the Bluebell Railway.
A "Patriot" class "The Unknown Warrior" is being built at Llangollen
A County class is being built somewhere?

 

[D6975]

A County class is being built somewhere?

Didcot possibly?

And Llangollen are doing a Grange.

 

[oddiesjack]

A BR Standard Cl 6 4-6-2 "Clan" is being built - frames are at Riley & Sons, Bury

A BR Standard Cl 3 2-6-2T is being built at the Severn Valley

As well as the GWR County mentioned above, there are new-builds (or significant conversions from donor locos) of GWR Saint, Grange and 47xx locos.

 

[Mikey C]

I thought this was going to be another thread about Pacer replacement

 

[oddiesjack]

I thought this was going to be another thread about Pacer replacement

Oooh Yes please!

The Standard Class 3 with 3 coaches would be perfect for the Hope Valley stoppers.

 

[Taunton]

A further "new build" operates on the West Somerset Railway, who have a 2-6-0 numbered 9351, which is effectively a Collett-era version of the common Churchward 43xx locos. It was assembled from various standard parts of other Collett locos, plus some new work. The Swindon drawing office actually did the design in the 1930s, using their standard parts, but one was never built until 60 years later.

 

[matchmaker]

However, step forward the Stanier Turbomotive. This was rather successful, it's very serious failing being it spent much of its life under repair awaiting parts.

Quite the contrary - the Turbomotive was very reliable.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The best proposal for new steam I've seen was the 5AT Advanced Steam Locomotive. It was to be the UK's answer to the Red Devil, a high tech modern loco rather than a replica of an ancient one. Sadly it was suspended. The webpage still exists. It was to run at 113-125mph..

 

[High Dyke]

Last year a chap gave us a talk about the Cranwell railway which was very interesting. after a beer break he then went on to outline some of the many steam loco's being built - and not restorations, but as many have outlined above. Albeit as mentioned some have donor parts, but are a recreation of long lost classes.

 

[infobleep]

I believe Tornado cost £1 million to build. Are the other steam engines costing similar amounts?

 

[gazthomas]

An arbitrary 75mph for mainline steam I'm afraid. In practice they are capable of greater speeds on the flat or downgrade, but they're pretty hopeless uphill in my opinion
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotives_of_the_21st_century

Plus of course slightly off topic the Baby Deltic and other diesel recreations

 

[alexl92]

I believe Tornado cost £1 million to build. Are the other steam engines costing similar amounts?

Tornado was expected to cost £1.5m and ended up costing £3m...

The P2 is £5m. Most of the others are in the £1.5m - £4m bracket I believe.

 

[JohnElliott]

Quite the contrary - the Turbomotive was very reliable.

I remember reading that one design flaw was that it only had a small turbine for running in reverse -- it could run backwards on its own, but couldn't (for example) set back with a full train.

 

[Bevan Price]

The cost per loco would be reduced if they built a batch of around 10 to 20 identical locos for regular use on several heritage lines. Something equivalent to a 4MT or 5MT design would suit the majority of heritage lines - but as for getting them all to agree on a single design - that is another problem. Some would never agree to a loco withoot a copper-capped chimney, for example.

 

[E&W Lucas]

After the success of Tornado and the promise of the 4-6-4, I have been musing (somewhat madly) to myself about what other possibilities there are for a new steam locomotive.

Current potentially high speed steam locomotives are restricted to 90mph, I believe, some through age (worry re breakdown and consequent problems for operators), some through perceived damage to their motion and valvegear (like Mallard) and also because of hammer blow damage to the track (all conventional steam engines).

However, step forward the Stanier Turbomotive. This was rather successful, it's very serious failing being it spent much of its life under repair awaiting parts. Assuming the design drawings still exist what would a modernised version of this locomotive bring to the party?

Potential for 125mph running (dependent on steam raising ability) as
- no hammer blow
- no conventional reciprocating motion
- no complex valve gear

- modern turbines used in ships, electricity generation, aircraft engines
etc are built to finer tolerances than in the 1930's, would give better
efficiency and would be much more reliable than in days of yesteryear
- turbine parts could possibly be manufactured at short notice by using 3d
printing technology and high tech, longer lasting materials
- it might be modified slightly to incorporate automated coal firing to make
copious steam generation more reliable and less painful

125mph would mean it would be able to fit into existing paths used by HST's etc.

Any thoughts?

That you've nil or near as practical experience of operating steam locomotives.

 

[Deepgreen]

After the success of Tornado and the promise of the 4-6-4, I have been musing (somewhat madly) to myself about what other possibilities there are for a new steam locomotive.

Current potentially high speed steam locomotives are restricted to 90mph, I believe, some through age (worry re breakdown and consequent problems for operators), some through perceived damage to their motion and valvegear (like Mallard) and also because of hammer blow damage to the track (all conventional steam engines).

However, step forward the Stanier Turbomotive. This was rather successful, it's very serious failing being it spent much of its life under repair awaiting parts. Assuming the design drawings still exist what would a modernised version of this locomotive bring to the party?

Potential for 125mph running (dependent on steam raising ability) as
- no hammer blow
- no conventional reciprocating motion
- no complex valve gear

- modern turbines used in ships, electricity generation, aircraft engines
etc are built to finer tolerances than in the 1930's, would give better
efficiency and would be much more reliable than in days of yesteryear
- turbine parts could possibly be manufactured at short notice by using 3d
printing technology and high tech, longer lasting materials
- it might be modified slightly to incorporate automated coal firing to make
copious steam generation more reliable and less painful

125mph would mean it would be able to fit into existing paths used by HST's etc.

Any thoughts?

What 4-6-4? Do you mean the P2, which is a 2-8-2?

 

[RichmondCommu]

The cost per loco would be reduced if they built a batch of around 10 to 20 identical locos for regular use on several heritage lines. Something equivalent to a 4MT or 5MT design would suit the majority of heritage lines - but as for getting them all to agree on a single design - that is another problem. Some would never agree to a loco withoot a copper-capped chimney, for example.

Build ten Black 5's and you might be in business. The LMS stretched far and wide and they were decent engines from what I've read.

 

[matacaster]

What 4-6-4? Do you mean the P2, which is a 2-8-2?

Yes, you are right of course -memory defective!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Tornado was expected to cost £1.5m and ended up costing £3m...

The P2 is £5m. Most of the others are in the £1.5m - £4m bracket I believe.

Considering how long Tornado took, and the inflation (especially railway related) over that period, that isn't actually that high in the grand scheme of things. For comparison, what would be the unit cost of a class 68?

 

[Pigeon]

What 4-6-4? Do you mean the P2, which is a 2-8-2?

I read that and thought "Surely not the W1? That would be a tremendous waste of effort..."

Personally I would love to see 6202 rebuilt, because it was such a shame it was unbuilt in the first place. It was one of the very rare examples of a departure from the standard overgrown-Rocket pattern that actually worked. It did spend quite a lot of time out of traffic awaiting parts, but that was not because they were prone to failure, just that if they did fail they had to be specially made. Had there been a fleet of them (and no war) things might have been different.

I can't see it doing 125mph though. It was geared for 62mph cruising speed originally. If geared for 125 it would need a different turbine in order not to be crap at starting and low speed work (where it would spend most of its time) and still wouldn't be all that hot. Not to mention the somewhat larger problem that it would have to produce 8 times the power and the boiler wouldn't cope and the fireman would have a heart attack.

Then once that's done we can rebuild GT3 as well and do side by side trials

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I believe Tornado cost £1 million to build. Are the other steam engines costing similar amounts?

Does that include the value of components and work done as sponsorship or by volunteers?