New Street - Stansted Overcrowding

[pt_mad]

Are there any plans for additional coaches to be added to Cross Country services on this route to make things more bearable? They could do with Voyagers on this route now although I realise these havn't been cleared for Stansted.

5 car 170s are needed!!!

 

[222007]

As a member of staff working this route i disagree we need 5car 170's. however 3car 170's are very much needed. There was talk a while back about CrossCountry getting the center cars from LM's 170's. Apparently stansted has been sorted so 4car 170's are cleared

 

[387star]

It's a shame all the ex MML 170s couldn't have been made up to three car. I presume they still make 170s?

If LM 170s are doing nothing off-peak it's a shame they can't make use of those.

I think LM and XC 170s are shared roughly half in half with XC having the mose three car units?

 

[Eagle]

It's a shame all the ex MML 170s couldn't have been made up to three car. I presume they still make 170s?

Haven't made any since 2004/05. It's all 172s at Derby now.

Having said that Bombardier have said they should be able to extend Voyagers (which are now 10 to 12 years old), so they might be able to do the same for their 170s.

 

[RobShipway]

I know it is a long way off but couldn't the spare class 185's (If there is any??) that will become available when FTPE gets Class 350's to do the Birmingham - Scotland services be used on Birmingham - Stanstead?

 

[Eagle]

I know it is a long way off but couldn't the spare class 185's (If there is any??) that will become available when FTPE gets Class 350's to do the Manchester - Scotland services be used on Birmingham - Stansted?

I think most of the 185s freed up by Manchester to Scotland will stay with TPE for strengthening; we won't see significant numbers freed up until TP North electrification. Although I do agree they'd be good to replace or supplement XC's 170s (at least on the Cardiff and Stansted runs).

 

[sprinterguy]

I know it is a long way off but couldn't the spare class 185's (If there is any??) that will become available when FTPE gets Class 350's to do the Birmingham - Scotland services be used on Birmingham - Stanstead?

The 185s released from Manchester to Scotland are all already earmarked for use strengthening other TPE services, and even if they weren't they would only constitute a very small fleet working for Crosscountry a long way from either of their dedicated maintenance depots. Perhaps there will be the opportunity in the future for TPEs' nine class 170/3s to be cascaded to Crosscountry though, after North TPE electrification maybe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think LM and XC 170s are shared roughly half in half with XC having the mose three car units?

London Midland received the brunt of the former Central Trains 170s, while XC of course received all the ex-Midland Mainline 170/1s. So XC have sixteen 3 carriage units and thirteen 2 carriage 170s, while London Midland have seventeen 2 carriage 170s and six 3 carriage ones.

 

[the sniper]

In an ideal world, surely you'd be looking at replacing Voyagers with 7 to 10 car IEP like units (but a less shambolic version of the IEP), replacing Cross Country 170s with the displaced Voyagers and sending the 170s to displace 14Xs and 150s on routes that are unsuitably long for them.

 

[jopsuk]

Single-unit four or five car 170s (I appreciate Stansted can only take 4 as it stands), with a suitable internal layout (one, larger, 1st class at one end, a micro buffet, vestibule doors like on the 1st class cabin throughout most of the train) would I think actually be quite good as 100mph inter regional XC units. 2 car 170s are just plain wrong...

 

[Eagle]

2 car 170s are just plain wrong...

They're plainer and wronger on the TPE services that use two-car 170s. :P

Also if you want vestibules in the 170s you're going to have to move the doors, of course. (Ditto any 185s.) 159-style layout would be great on these routes.

 

[Blindtraveler]

as an infrequent user of this run I must agree.

Question though, is the full 100mph capabilitty used much on the stansteds?
If not is there anywhere that could use 100 capable stock and could swap say some 2 coach 158s for stansted runs run as 4 coaches?

 

[Bevan Price]

Not been east of Nuneaton for several years, but Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester used to be the busiest part of the route. Would it solve many of the problems if most services were boosted by a 2 car unit just between Birmingham & Leicester ? Of course, the overcrowding was made worse when DfT/XC decided that some standard class seating was removed to create a first class seating area.

 

[Eagle]

Not been east of Nuneaton for several years, but Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester used to be the busiest part of the route. Would it solve many of the problems if most services were boosted by a 2 car unit just between Birmingham & Leicester ? Of course, the overcrowding was made worse when DfT/XC decided that some standard class seating was removed to create a first class seating area.

Leicester currently gets an average of 5 carriages an hour from Birmingham; I agree that something like 7 would be more appropriate. (I remember in the West Midlands RUS there was talk of freeing up space at New Street by extending the Hereford service towards Tamworth or Nuneaton, which might do the trick too.)

 

[Blindtraveler]

Leicester currently gets an average of 5 carriages an hour from Birmingham; I agree that something like 7 would be more appropriate. (I remember in the West Midlands RUS there was talk of freeing up space at New Street by extending the Hereford service towards Tamworth or Nuneaton, which might do the trick too.)

and speeking of Hereford, how intensively do LM use there 170s? I was under the impression many sat idle much of the day. If so would it not make sense to give XC a few?

 

[MCR247]

London Midland received the brunt of the former Central Trains 170s, while XC of course received all the ex-Midland Mainline 170/1s. So XC have sixteen 3 carriage units and thirteen 2 carriage 170s, while London Midland have seventeen 2 carriage 170s and six 3 carriage ones.

You say brunt like they actually need more!

 

[Aictos]

Thing is a lot of the stations are restricted to any many coaches they can take, can March and Stamford for example take any train longer then 3 coaches?

No problems with the bigger stations but it's the smaller stations which make all the difference unless SDO was available.

 

[David Goddard]

The great Central Trains carve up saw their Cl170s split to

101-117 (10x3car and 7x2car) XC
398-399 (2x3car) XC
501-517 (17x2car) LM
518-523 (6x2car) XC
630-635 (6x3car) LM
636-639 (4x3car) XC

I am not sure of every diagram that LM uses their units on (I know that they work from New Street to Shrewsbury and Hereford, and have travelled on one from Rugeley TV into Birmingham),

I believe that a small reshuffle in this area could solve a number of problems:

*If the LM's 3car sets are underused then simply swap their six three-car sets 630-635 for XC's six two-cars 518-523, giving XC a further six vehicles to strengthen Birmingham to Stansted services and also those to Nottingham.

*If this would be too detrimental to LM capacity, then transfer Birmingham to Shewsbury and Hereford services to XC and join them up with the Stansted and Nottingham services respectively. With this would go 630-635, and a handful of the two-car sets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thing is a lot of the stations are restricted to any many coaches they can take, can March and Stamford for example take any train longer then 3 coaches?

No problems with the bigger stations but it's the smaller stations which make all the difference unless SDO was available.

According to Trackmaps (usually pretty reliable), smaller station lengths en routeare as follows:

Manea 2*
March 6
Whittlesea 4
Stamford 4
Oakham 6
Melton Mowbray 4
Hinckley 5
Nuneaton 7

So the only real issue is Manea, and that gets just two services each way per day.

 

[jopsuk]

frankly even March should be borderline as to whether or not it is an XC stop- the stations between Ely and Peterborough should be served by a better local service.

As for vestibule doors, I'm only suggesting what 170s already have on the First Class sections. The fact that they already have them means that they're possible...

 

[sprinterguy]

You say brunt like they actually need more!

I assure you, that wasn't my intention!

 

[dk1]

frankly even March should be borderline as to whether or not it is an XC stop- the stations between Ely and Peterborough should be served by a better local service.

GA have no plans to increase the Ipswich-Peterborough services. Only relief may come when & if XC extend the Leicester terminators through to Cambridge. Much of this rests on a £10m upgrade of Ely North Jc. FCC will than introduce a half-hourly Kings X-Kings Lynn.

 

[David Goddard]

when & if XC extend the Leicester terminators through to Cambridge.

Cant remember how many years ago this was first suggested.
It may be more appropriate if these extended journeys went to Norwich, restoring another link that was lost soon after privatisation.

 

[dk1]

Cant remember how many years ago this was first suggested.
It may be more appropriate if these extended journeys went to Norwich, restoring another link that was lost soon after privatisation.

Agreed but with the current set up, it cant happen.

 

[sprinterguy]

The great Central Trains carve up saw their Cl170s split to

101-117 (10x3car and 7x2car) XC
398-399 (2x3car) XC
501-517 (17x2car) LM
518-523 (6x2car) XC
630-635 (6x3car) LM
636-639 (4x3car) XC

I am not sure of every diagram that LM uses their units on (I know that they work from New Street to Shrewsbury and Hereford, and have travelled on one from Rugeley TV into Birmingham),

I believe that a small reshuffle in this area could solve a number of problems:

*If the LM's 3car sets are underused then simply swap their six three-car sets 630-635 for XC's six two-cars 518-523, giving XC a further six vehicles to strengthen Birmingham to Stansted services and also those to Nottingham.

*If this would be too detrimental to LM capacity, then transfer Birmingham to Shewsbury and Hereford services to XC and join them up with the Stansted and Nottingham services respectively. With this would go 630-635, and a handful of the two-car sets.

That's exactly the idea that I would advocate as well. I think that with some reshuffling in diagramming so that London Midlands 170/5s are used more intensively throughout the day, and possibly the 153s too but I think their diagramming is a good deal tighter now, then there would be no detrimental effect on train lengths on LMs' 170 routes. Some services that are currently three carriages long may even be able to become 4 cars.

I would say that it's worth noting that giving XC the six 3-car 170/6s would limit the number of 4 carriage formations they could form by pairing up 2 carriage 170s, but there would still be seven 2-carriage 170/1s (So say 3 pairs and one on maintenance) and there's currently enough two carriage 170s running around solo on XC that six additional 3 carriage units would probably cover all of the currently single 2-car diagrams without leading to a reduction in the number of 4-car pairs in service.

London Midland operate 170s on Birmingham - Hereford, Birmingham - Shrewsbury and Birmingham - Walsall - Rugeley. If London Midland were to acquire just a handful more class 172s to operate the Chase Line services (and the one or two 170 diagrams that are now on the Snow Hill lines), then if XC took over the Shrewsbury and Hereford services then LM would have no need to have any 170s. Crosscountry could have the lot. Similarly, if you were to swap LMs' six 170/6s for XCs' five 170/5s, then if London Midland had a few more 172s to operate the Chase line services then LM would have absolutely no problems getting by with 23 two carriage 170s to cover just the Hereford and Shrewsbury services.

 

[Eagle]

Cant remember how many years ago this was first suggested.
It may be more appropriate if these extended journeys went to Norwich, restoring another link that was lost soon after privatisation.

Does Ely really need three trains an hour to Norwich? I really don't think that's the best use of capacity.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not been east of Nuneaton for several years, but Birmingham - Nuneaton - Leicester used to be the busiest part of the route. Would it solve many of the problems if most services were boosted by a 2 car unit just between Birmingham & Leicester ?

I think this would be an excellent low cost solution to overcrowding on the western part of the route. For only a little additional resource use the majority, or perhaps all, trains could be 3 or 4 carriages long by attaching or detaching a two carriage 170 at Leicester.

 

[David Goddard]

Well maybe I am a bit biased (given I hail from Ely), but, given earlier threads regarding the upgrading of Ely North Junction, this service need not even serve Ely if the West Curve was restored to two way use.

 

[222007]

According to Trackmaps (usually pretty reliable), smaller station lengths en routeare as follows:

Whittlesea 4
Oakham 6
Melton Mowbray 4

So the only real issue is Manea, and that gets just two services each way per day.

I believe Whittlesea is only 3, Oakham i believe is 5 (i've worked a 6car west and only 5 fitted on) Melton is also only 4

 

[Martin222002]

I personally think that the Birmingham-Stansted route is a good candidate (well between Birmingham and Ely) for electrification. This would allow the Birmingham-Stansted services to be operated by 4 car EMUs, which would be a capacity boost in itself, and potentially increasing it to half hourly, extending the current Birmigham-Leicester's.

You could also extend the wires all from Ely to Ipswich, creating a second electrified route from Ipswich to the WCML, and more importantly would allow electric operated freight to avoid going via London. Another benefit to freight would be that it would be that electric hauled freight would be able to get to the intermodal terminal at Coleshill.

 

[Rich McLean]

The great Central Trains carve up saw their Cl170s split to

101-117 (10x3car and 7x2car) XC
398-399 (2x3car) XC
501-517 (17x2car) LM
518-523 (6x2car) XC
630-635 (6x3car) LM
636-639 (4x3car) XC

I am not sure of every diagram that LM uses their units on (I know that they work from New Street to Shrewsbury and Hereford, and have travelled on one from Rugeley TV into Birmingham),

I believe that a small reshuffle in this area could solve a number of problems:

*If the LM's 3car sets are underused then simply swap their six three-car sets 630-635 for XC's six two-cars 518-523, giving XC a further six vehicles to strengthen Birmingham to Stansted services and also those to Nottingham.

*If this would be too detrimental to LM capacity, then transfer Birmingham to Shewsbury and Hereford services to XC and join them up with the Stansted and Nottingham services respectively. With this would go 630-635, and a handful of the two-car sets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


According to Trackmaps (usually pretty reliable), smaller station lengths en routeare as follows:

Manea 2*
March 6
Whittlesea 4
Stamford 4
Oakham 6
Melton Mowbray 4
Hinckley 5
Nuneaton 7

So the only real issue is Manea, and that gets just two services each way per day.

Currently on the New Street to Shrewsbury service, the 3 coach 170's are used intensively all day, with some 2 cars to bolster numbers. Also the us 2 x 2car 170's coupled together during the peaks.

A lot of these trains are well used, and the 2 carrage services often get crowded, so I think this is out of the window. LM use all their 170's during the peaks, but off peak many are sitting idle for the day.

LM's 170's do have SDO, so platform length issues only arise when a platform can only take 2 carriage trains. If the platform takes 3 carr'ages, you can use doubled up 2 car 170's, with the rear or front carriage doors kept locked.

 

[tbtc]

According to Trackmaps (usually pretty reliable), smaller station lengths en routeare as follows:

Manea 2*

So the only real issue is Manea, and that gets just two services each way per day.

Is there any need for XC to serve Manea? Couldn't responsibility for those stops be given to GA for their Ipswich - Peterborough services?

It seems like the tail is wagging the dog here