• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

New Street - Stansted Overcrowding

Status
Not open for further replies.

philjo

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2009
Messages
2,884
if Ely-Peterborough ever gets wired then I would extend a Liverpool St - Cambridge service to Peterborough (possibly dividing units at Cambridge) to provide the local service and those stations also gain a direct train to London. It also gives better connections at Peterborough for Harlow & Bishop's Stortford etc.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
Is there any need for XC to serve Manea? Couldn't responsibility for those stops be given to GA for their Ipswich - Peterborough services?

It seems like the tail is wagging the dog here

The morning train to/evening train from Peterborough isn't used much. Usually no one!

The morning train to Cambridge and the evening return are surprisingly pretty well used, mostly students/commuters to Cambridge.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Does Ely really need three trains an hour to Norwich? I really don't think that's the best use of capacity.

Well if Ely West Curve was re-signalled to be fully bi-directional then that service proposed to be extended to Norwich could use the chord and not call at Ely.

Ely would still enjoy the present services so should not be affected at all.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,768
Location
Herts
Well if Ely West Curve was re-signalled to be fully bi-directional then that service proposed to be extended to Norwich could use the chord and not call at Ely.

Ely would still enjoy the present services so should not be affected at all.

Must chase up the Ely chord issue - apparently not too difficult to implement. The bi-di was locked out by BR after the Newton / Bellgrove collisions - with TPWS the risk is much reduced.
 

David Goddard

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
1,502
Location
Reading
The latest I heard was that the Junction was in need of remodelling, to something like what we had up until 1992. Doubt the loop would get re-doubled, but bi-di should not be a problem nowadays.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Must chase up the Ely chord issue - apparently not too difficult to implement. The bi-di was locked out by BR after the Newton / Bellgrove collisions - with TPWS the risk is much reduced.

To you sir, £3m (including removal of the double blocking on the Peterborough line). I raised an eyebrow too. And then started swearing.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,821
Location
East Anglia
Must chase up the Ely chord issue - apparently not too difficult to implement. The bi-di was locked out by BR after the Newton / Bellgrove collisions - with TPWS the risk is much reduced.

Not that easy. Been told it now involves moving a signal & realigning a set of points. TPWS has made so much difference but the latest upgrade stands at a staggering £10m!! Would expect quite a change for that. Even then no XC services will head to Norwich without a yet another redrawing of the franchise map.
 

Badger

Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
617
Location
Wolverhampton
As a member of staff working this route i disagree we need 5car 170's. however 3car 170's are very much needed. There was talk a while back about CrossCountry getting the center cars from LM's 170's. Apparently stansted has been sorted so 4car 170's are cleared

As a regular commuter I disagree with this. 3 cars are clearly not enough when I've travelled at peak times. It gets incredibly packed. I don't mean to insult you, but there are also never any ticket checks done on those times (when I've been on) which may be why you would disagree as you won't have seen the overcrowding. It's awful at times.

In the daytime it's reasonable with only a few standing, sure.

I've had it so bad at times I've got off at an intermediate station and waited for the next train along (I know I shouldn't, but like I said, no ticket checks).

This is a prime route. With the distances between stops as well, something more like a voyager/meridian would do well.

Now I only travel Leicester to Birmingham and vice versa, mind.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
As a regular commuter I disagree with this. 3 cars are clearly not enough when I've travelled at peak times. It gets incredibly packed. I don't mean to insult you, but there are also never any ticket checks done on those times (when I've been on) which may be why you would disagree as you won't have seen the overcrowding. It's awful at times.

In the daytime it's reasonable with only a few standing, sure.

I've had it so bad at times I've got off at an intermediate station and waited for the next train along (I know I shouldn't, but like I said, no ticket checks).

This is a prime route. With the distances between stops as well, something more like a voyager/meridian would do well.

Now I only travel Leicester to Birmingham and vice versa, mind.

Why oh why do people want Voyagers on this route?

A fuel hungry 125 mph unit on a route which is predominately 75mph. A unit which has less standard capacity and higher track access charges. Utter madness!!!

I worked the route for over 7 years and there's no way 5 cars 170's are needed most of the time. Whilst I don't doubt there's some latent demand I doubt you'd fill a 350 seat train most of the time, except perhaps Sat mornings into New Street in the run up to Christmas and the 0845 arrival into New Street in the week.

As for extending the Leicester terminators to Norwich, you'd need to rewrite the timetable. As it stands they would clash with the P'boro-Ipswich at Peterborough, the Liverpool-Norwich at Ely North and then the Cambridge-Norwich and Kings Lynn-London at Ely. Would also clash with the Norwich-Cambridge at Norwich/Ely on the reverse.

When XC were considering extending them to Cambridge every other hour the paths were pretty grim. 25 minutes Stamford-Peterborough, 25 minutes Melton-Leicester and 32 minutes March-Ely were some of the "highlights". Although they never ran the trains were shown in the Summer 2009 timetable. The extra platforms at Peterborough will ease the route slightly but Ely north Junction will be a challenge, along with the odd extra freightliner that now use the route.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,821
Location
East Anglia
The extra platforms at Peterborough will ease the route slightly but Ely north Junction will be a challenge, along with the odd extra freightliner that now use the route.

Odd Freightliner is hardly the way i would phrase it when you see the planned trandfer of East Coast port freight that is expected across the Fens in the next couple of years.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,070
Not that easy. Been told it now involves moving a signal & realigning a set of points. TPWS has made so much difference but the latest upgrade stands at a staggering £10m!! Would expect quite a change for that. Even then no XC services will head to Norwich without a yet another redrawing of the franchise map.

The £10m is a back of the envelope (literally) estimate to redouble the connection Ely - Kings Lynn, whilst retaining current line speeds. This is to permit more frequent services to Kings Lynn (which would also need the power supply upgraded).

To redouble the connections towards Norwich and Kings Lynn and also retain current line speeds, means land take, moving the freight sidings, possibly losing the chord, and about £20m.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
Odd Freightliner is hardly the way i would phrase it when you see the planned trandfer of East Coast port freight that is expected across the Fens in the next couple of years.

I was being sarcastic. I know what's planned and I'm planning on getting a signallers job on the March line when my box goes in June so I know I'd have to do a tad more work!
 

Firesprite

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2011
Messages
295
Location
Fens
frankly even March should be borderline as to whether or not it is an XC stop- the stations between Ely and Peterborough should be served by a better local service.

As for vestibule doors, I'm only suggesting what 170s already have on the First Class sections. The fact that they already have them means that they're possible...

March is a busy station and the main rail-head for the Fens. Downgrading the station would not go down well with the locals. The Fenland Rail Development Strategy calls for the Norwich trains to stop at March. As well upgrading of the Ipswich – Peterborough Service to hourly, with a two hourly call at Manea and an hourly call at Whittlesey would allow this to become the local service. Along with the reopening of the Wisbech branch (Which is also supported by the ATO).

The trains are overcrowded, even more so in the summer with doorways blocked and seats plied high with suitcases, Getting out at Cambridge or Peterborough is hell. I now catch a later train to work due to the overcrowding of the 7.32 and 8.32. The platform at March is packed at these
times. If it was not for the short platform at the Airport, I would go for a
service using a class 67, Mk3's and a DVT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Odd Freightliner is hardly the way i would phrase it when you see the planned trandfer of East Coast port freight that is expected across the Fens in the next couple of years.

There already 26 freight trains each way per day. This is expected to increase to 48 per day.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
March is a busy station and the main rail-head for the Fens. Downgrading the station would not go down well with the locals. The Fenland Rail Development Strategy calls for the Norwich trains to stop at March. As well upgrading of the Ipswich – Peterborough Service to hourly, with a two hourly call at Manea and an hourly call at Whittlesey would allow this to become the local service. Along with the reopening of the Wisbech branch (Which is also supported by the ATO).

The trains are overcrowded, even more so in the summer with doorways blocked and seats plied high with suitcases, Getting out at Cambridge or Peterborough is hell. I now catch a later train to work due to the overcrowding of the 7.32 and 8.32. The platform at March is packed at these
times. If it was not for the short platform at the Airport, I would go for a
service using a class 67, Mk3's and a DVT.

Don't disagree about the Ipswich service, but again would the paths be available with all the freight? the 0732 is only a 2 car and is busy but the 0832 is fine as its booked a 3 car.

As for luggage space I agree. Just like the 185 that serve Manchester Airport luggage space is crap.

Oh, and I'll not get started about the bloody bikes...
 

Badger

Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
617
Location
Wolverhampton
Why oh why do people want Voyagers on this route?

Sorry I'm a generic ignorant train user who thinks things are simple. Ignore the voyager comment, just replace with "a bigger, faster train and all the associated infrastructure that would need". Which, thinking about it, is a lot, and hence why the general public (me) shouldn't comment on these things!

The distances involved though do justify a mini buffet (hard getting the trolley through at times) and a better first class section.
 

Firesprite

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2011
Messages
295
Location
Fens
Don't disagree about the Ipswich service, but again would the paths be available with all the freight? the 0732 is only a 2 car and is busy but the 0832 is fine as its booked a 3 car.

As for luggage space I agree. Just like the 185 that serve Manchester Airport luggage space is crap.

Oh, and I'll not get started about the bloody bikes...

The 8.32 may be a 3 car, It is still packed to standing room only most days.
 

Flywaver

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
190
Every unit a 3 Car is all that's needed.
Voyager would be overkill.Of course to drive one than a 170 would be great on this route but its not practical. I work this route and we have a brief 95mph line speed Washwood Heath to Water Orton and it's a mix of 70-90 to Stansted. Only improvements i could see line speed wise would be 100mph Nuneaton to Croft. Also Uffington to New England at 90mph. The rest would rely on junction improvements and 75s raised to 80mph perhaps. The Class 170s however need improved acceleration. New engines would be the answer or it's Class 185s which i don't think will happen...
 

Badger

Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
617
Location
Wolverhampton
That's another thing - anything on the Birmingham - Stanstead train also needs to fit at Water Orton, Hinckley, Narborough, and South Wigston, since the trains are shared between the two services.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
Sorry I'm a generic ignorant train user who thinks things are simple. Ignore the voyager comment, just replace with "a bigger, faster train and all the associated infrastructure that would need". Which, thinking about it, is a lot, and hence why the general public (me) shouldn't comment on these things!

The distances involved though do justify a mini buffet (hard getting the trolley through at times) and a better first class section.

Sorry if you thought I was having a pop at you over the Voyager comment.

Longer trains are needed along with more infrastructure, but unless you've got the ear of Justine Greening I would expect much except the Peterborough platforms (2014?), Leicester-Peterborough resignalling (2016?) and Peterborough-Ely resignalling (2020?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 8.32 may be a 3 car, It is still packed to standing room only most days.

I must be lucky! Busy Ely-Cambridge but never experience it standing room only from March, unless it's just a 2 car.
 

Bellwater

Member
Joined
10 Jan 2010
Messages
522
Location
on a 158
Re Norwich trains going to March: I've had a stop order for Whittlesea/March once and it was bloody chaotic.. Normally Norwich services are quiet, but the extra 2 stops filled it up.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
1,991
Re Norwich trains going to March: I've had a stop order for Whittlesea/March once and it was bloody chaotic.. Normally Norwich services are quiet, but the extra 2 stops filled it up.

Agree. Unless its a Friday afternoon/Summer Saturday the Norwich's seem pretty quiet when they go by the box.

And EMT's 158's are another unit blessed with copious luggage capacity...
 

Bellwater

Member
Joined
10 Jan 2010
Messages
522
Location
on a 158
I'm waiting for someone to suggest ALL EMT services call at March.. In the same way TPE dumped their Chinley stops and we picked up the passengers.
 

Flywaver

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
190
Let's be honest here. Birmingham - Stansted is 3hrs 17. Cambridge is about to get a station at Chesterton and i get the impression this will add to journey time unless dwell times are improved especially at Peterborough when the extra platforms are built. Ideally some off peak services could call from Brum at Nun-Lei-Pet-Ely-Cambs-Stan to knock it to 3hrs but now the numpties in the big smoke want to send all the Intermodals on the same route then we can rule that out....
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,005
Wasn't there supposed to be a second TPH?

The problem with this is that it acts as a local train at both ends. Surely stations between Ely and Peterborough would be best covered by the trains from Ipswich, or a new local 2 car train to Cambridge.

The stretch between Ely and Peterborough surely could have a higher linespeed, being relatively straight.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
Relatively straight, but across an embankment on the fens- the line to Kings Lynn which is also pretty straight currently has speed restrictions as the fens around it are drying out, causing the embankment to shift. The foundations of these lines are not the most stable of formations, which is rather limiting for speed. Not sure what could be done to sort this.

The Ely-Peterborough line also has rather a lot of automatic crossings- on some stretches the roads seem to zig-zag back and forth across the line.

Furthemore the signalling is rather old fashioned.
 

philjo

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2009
Messages
2,884
Is there provision for local trains to/from the Ely line to start/terminate at Peterborough once the station upgrade is completed? If so then an additional hourly PBO stopper from Cambridge could run that route for the local stations.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
There's already the Ipswich-Peterbrough train that terminates there- I think part of the redevelopment is supposed to deal with making sure it doesn't "block" a platform in doing so.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,005
Could the Ipswich - Peterborough train continue onwards then to avoid blocking, perhaps to Nottingham via Oakham, creating a new flow?
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
The problem with this is that it acts as a local train at both ends

True.

Ideally you'd throw resources at Birmingham - Leicester and Peterborough - Cambridge - Stansted, because both look like they have the potential for decent growth.

However, to improve the full route would take a lot of resources, and its fairly quiet territory between Leicester and Birmingham.

I know I get a bit of criticism for suggesting services are chopped, but I could see the case for electrifying Birmingham - Leicester and Peterborough - Ely, which could become:

  • Liverpool - Birmingham - Leicester - half hourly service run by 350s - this used to be a through service under BR/ Central trains days - it'd give Merseyside a direct link to the East Midlands - the capacity of the 350s would be a big improvement on the 170s.
  • Leicester - Peterborough - hourly DMU run, maybe interworked with EMT's Ivanhoe service, maybe some services from Leicester - Melton Mowbray - Corby - Kettering to free up the 222s wasted on offpeak Corby services, maybe even some Leicester - Melton Mowbray - Corby - Kettering - Bedford - London services to give Melton Mowbray a better connection?
  • London - Cambridge - Peterborough - extend some/all of the West Anglia 379 services through to Peterborough (maybe via Stansted?) giving Ely/March an improved service to the capital.

At the moment the service is so long and slow that its going to struggle to attract what few longer distance passengers there are, so we end up with a service that nobody wants because its trying to cater to the busy "inter city" markets whilst being short enough to suit some of the rural stations - rip it up and start again?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top