New Thameslinky Trains - Tables ?

[bramling]

As a regular traveller (Super Off Peak TCs are soooooooooooooooooooooo good at weekends TL Only from GTW) I love the dec 1st class.
Tables, Comfier Chairs, Power Sockets
Hell even single seats on some tables

Ive found HRH - Peterborough Services tend to be 12 cars at all times but I could be wrong.
I also find that GTW to Bedford / BTN to Cambridge tend to be 8 cars on occasions.

Horsham to Peterborough tends to be fairly reliably 12-car, as the diagrams don’t tend to run depot to depot, which is where 8-cars are more likely to appear.

Brighton to Cambridge is booked all 12-car, but there’s a couple of diagrams which are more conducive to 8-cars appearing. In normal circumstances 8-cars aren’t booked, apart from during certain weekend engineering work timetables where they can appear.

There was one Saturday evening diagrammed working which took a 700/0 from Peterborough to Horsham and back, not sure if it still happens with the Covid timetables. From memory the 8-car came to Peterborough off one of the Saturday afternoon KX extras, went to Horsham and back, and then made its way back to Hornsey on one of the Sunday morning KX services. Under normal working this has been the only 700/0 to both Peterborough and Horsham.

 

[AM9]

That fraction could become quite significant. Personally I do find power can be quite useful, though you'll no doubt make the point that I should be organised enough to have charged my phone beforehand! I can live without it though.
In fact to be honest I'm not overly fussed about tables, I'm quite happy to use the adjacent seat - but I don't travel at busy times, when this is no doubt more of a salient issue. I can understand why some like them though, and the half tables on the 365s were certainly useful to have.

The only time that I have charged my phone on a train was when travelling to Sheffield on EMT Meridians. The shielding on the window glass drains my phone's battery so a top-up enabled me to keep some charge to the end of the day. I did have a portable charger anyway in case they weren't there as I'd already been caught out on 221s to NEC and Chester.
As far as declassified 1st class goes, I just go there for peace and quiet.

I agree splitting the sub-fleets isn't really practical. You could do something different between the 8 cars and 12 cars though, as it's rare for a 12-car to appear on an 8-car diagram (it has happened on King's Cross-Cambridge a couple of times). So if you were to go for a better specified interior on the 12-cars then the only issue would be on the comparatively uncommon occasions when an 8-car is substituted, or on the slightly less uncommon occasions when it's diagrammed (which no doubt regular users would become aware of, and could avoid if necessary).

busiest flow on the MML is I believe the core to St Albans. Currently, quite a few passengers take to the Sutton loop slows, partly to avoid crossing to P3, (and return from P4), and also to because they are guaranteed a seat. If there was a significant amenity uplift to the 700/1s, more might be tempted to take to the fasts, thus reducing the opportunities for longer distance travellers to avail themselves to the benefits.

Declassified first was full, I take it?

On the way up, we were running a bit close for an appointment time and on the return, neither of us could be bothered to walk to the back at ZFD having arrived on a Met from Liverpool St. The trains were only about 20% full anyway.

 

[A0wen]

The people I see using laptops are more often that not doing coding for IT!

Probably explains why there's so much crap coding around which takes forever to get through testing .......

 

[Dave W]

Mixed feelings on the views in this thread:

Charging points... I made great use of these on daily return (and more frequent even than that) use of the 717s for many months from their introduction. Always a weird shock to be on a long distance 700 without a plug under every seat. But then they mostly ran unused on the suburban inners, at least, anyway.

I’ve used 700s all over the TL network, from as far north as Hitchin and Luton down to Brighton, and lots of other places in between. The seats and layout just don’t bother me, and I suspect bother the public a lot less than most people here - especially when full. Fact remains it’s half the price to go TL than Southern down to the coast - for ~£15 return I’d sit on a nailbed if the alternative was £30+ on a “comfortable” train.

 

[FR510]

I find it's mostly because of the plug sockets when I travel on them, mind you there must be a third reason that hasn't mentioned...


I'm the same, recently I've had a 2.5hr commute one way on them so I generally make my way to the declassified 1st Class and make myself comfortable, the slightly better seating and the plug sockets are my main reasons for using it.


Plug sockets are under the seats in much the same way that they are fitted on Class 717s and also how they're fitted on the SouthEastern HS1 Class 395s. Usually a pair of plug sockets per two seats.


Even though it's a 2.5hrs end to end, it is a metro route as it stops nearly everywhere from London Bridge to Rainham but is semi fast north of St Pancras.


No it isn't, not all the infrastructure is fit for 12 car operation especially in Kent.


I hate to burst your bubble guys but Luton to Rainham isn't 12 car capable at all because some stations are only permitted to take a maximum length of 10 car trains even if the actual platform length is longer then 240m.
So regardless of the Class 700s having SDO or not, it's not permitted by Network Rail so not worth discussing 12 car operation on the Luton to Rainham services.

Higham 10 car only
Woolwich Arsenal 10 car only

And that was taken from the Network Rail (Kent, Wessex, Sussex) Sectional Appendix dated Feb 2021.

12 car 465s have stopped at Higham, and Woolwich Arsenal can take 12 cars. Woolwich Dockyard is only 10. Perhaps there are different rules for 700s at Higham and Woolwich Arsenal?

3 x 700s are berthed Gillingham Depot every night - 12 car 700s cannot be accommadated on those roads which are only 10 car.

 

[Ianno87]

3 x 700s are berthed Gillingham Depot every night - 12 car 700s cannot be accommadated on those roads which are only 10 car.

Off memory the restriction is the headhunt, which can only take 11 cars. Whether there is some way of switching 8/12 cars over in the diagrams I'm not sure.

That’s what I was thinking (indeed 8-car on Rainham/Luton seems quite an omission to me).

However I’m more thinking of the opposite - we can all think of plenty of examples where 8-cars are operating on 12-car capable routes, either the whole service in the case of Rainham, or certain diagrams in the case of Bedford/Brighton. But I can’t think of any of the current 12-car routes which were planned for 8-car.

As an aside, whilst Rainham to Luton is clearly 12-car capable, I suspect there might not be sufficient stabling for that whole service to go 12-car if units were to be lengthened? The stabling situation on the Midland side is already messy with 8-cars having to find their way up to Bedford and 12-cars down to Cricklewood.

Just remembering that another latecomer to the 12-car party was Littlehampton.

 

[FR510]

Off memory the restriction is the headhunt, which can only take 11 cars. Whether there is some way of switching 8/12 cars over in the diagrams I'm not sure.



Just remembering that another latecomer to the 12-car party was Littlehampton.

The 2 reception roads can fit 12 (just!!), so can the shunt neck and the maintenance shed. Roads 7 - 13, which are the berthing roads cannot hold 12 cars.

 

[bramling]

Off memory the restriction is the headhunt, which can only take 11 cars. Whether there is some way of switching 8/12 cars over in the diagrams I'm not sure.



Just remembering that another latecomer to the 12-car party was Littlehampton.

8-cars to Littlehampton would have been daft from the get-go, a total waste of scarce paths on the Brighton line.

It does seem someone got their crystal ball slightly wrong when it came to deciding on the balance between 8 and 12 car trains, as clearly there aren’t quite enough 12s.

 

[Ianno87]

8-cars to Littlehampton would have been daft from the get-go, a total waste of scarce paths on the Brighton line.

It does seem someone got their crystal ball slightly wrong when it came to deciding on the balance between 8 and 12 car trains, as clearly there aren’t quite enough 12s.

Point is that Littlehampton as a destination (IIRC) wasn't on the table at all until "late in the day".

8-car trains would instead have been to Caterham and Tattenham Corner (2tph to each).

 

[bramling]

Point is that Littlehampton as a destination (IIRC) wasn't on the table at all until "late in the day".

8-car trains would instead have been to Caterham and Tattenham Corner (2tph to each).

That would perhaps explain it, as the number of 12-cars to Littlehampton isn’t massively different from the number of 8-car diagrams on Bedford-Brighton and Gatwick.

Evidently no one wanted to pay for lengthening a handful of 8-cars to reflect the altered plans.

 

[JonathanH]

Evidently no one wanted to pay for lengthening a handful of 8-cars to reflect the altered plans

Stabling is also an issue as all of the 8-car workings on 12-car routes use Bedford Carriage Sidings at some point in the day (and there has to be some means of getting the 8-car units back to Three Bridges depot also).

 

[Aictos]

12 car 465s have stopped at Higham, and Woolwich Arsenal can take 12 cars. Woolwich Dockyard is only 10. Perhaps there are different rules for 700s at Higham and Woolwich Arsenal?

It's changed then because the sectional appendix dated Feb 2021 stated that while the platform length at Higham was long enough to take a 12 car, in the notes it says 10 cars so that leads me to believe that there is currently a restriction of a maximum length of 10 cars trains to call on both the Up and Down platforms.