New ticket gates in North of England

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aformeruser

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I notice TPE are saying they will add ticket gates to platforms 1-3 at Manchester Piccadilly (I think it's platforms 4 and 5 which Virgin have gated) and well as gating Dewsbury.

I imagine we'll hear about more stations getting ticket gates in due course.
 
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WatcherZero

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Wigan Wallgate is supposed to be getting gates from Arriva, though the previous franchise considered and rejected gates there when they refurbished the ticket office, concluding there wasn't enough space.
 

aformeruser

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I don't get the disconnected gating of Manc Picc - why not have all TOCs work together for a single gateline along the glass wall?

Because it's a privatised industry and new franchises are being let at different times. Technically the STM RPIs at doors for platforms 10,11, 13 and 14 aren't supposed to stop any ATW/EMT/TPE passengers. Virgin apparently issued a formal complaint about contracted RPIs for another operator stopping their passengers but other operators haven't even if it they haven't authorised it either.
 

alexl92

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I notice TPE are saying they will add ticket gates to platforms 1-3 at Manchester Piccadilly (I think it's platforms 4 and 5 which Virgin have gated) and well as gating Dewsbury.

I imagine we'll hear about more stations getting ticket gates in due course.

Dewsbury?! Why don't they actually just pay the staff (who would have to be there anyway to look after the gates) to check tickets?! I don't use it frequently but I have NEVER seen a member of staff outside the ticket office there. It's laziness.
 

323235

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I notice TPE are saying they will add ticket gates to platforms 1-3 at Manchester Piccadilly (I think it's platforms 4 and 5 which Virgin have gated) and well as gating Dewsbury.

I imagine we'll hear about more stations getting ticket gates in due course.

Can you clarify what you mean by Virgin gating platforms 4 and 5?
 

JonathanH

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I don't get the disconnected gating of Manc Picc - why not have all TOCs work together for a single gateline along the glass wall?

There is a very strong argument for a gatelines separating local and long distance travellers to catch people taking a chance on making an ongoing journey without a valid ticket for the through route and passengers interchanging between routes with ungated stations at each end.

Large interchange stations should be split into separate zones for precisely this purpose as then you can concentrate staff at that station with the greatest footfall.
 

AndrewE

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There is a very strong argument for a gatelines separating local and long distance travellers to catch people taking a chance on making an ongoing journey without a valid ticket for the through route and passengers interchanging between routes with ungated stations at each end.

Large interchange stations should be split into separate zones for precisely this purpose as then you can concentrate staff at that station with the greatest footfall.

I have noticed that, when presenting a pass at the manned gates, the staff at Crewe and other places now have to put a small Yale-type key into a lock and turn it to release a gate... I wonder how long those old-fashioned and not very robust bits of kit will last? In other places the staff seem to have some sort of an electronic card to swipe.
It's doomed to fail fairly quickly if you ask me.
 

gray1404

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Because it's a privatised industry and new franchises are being let at different times. Technically the STM RPIs at doors for platforms 10,11, 13 and 14 aren't supposed to stop any ATW/EMT/TPE passengers. Virgin apparently issued a formal complaint about contracted RPIs for another operator stopping their passengers but other operators haven't even if it they haven't authorised it either.

Thats interesting and useful information to know. I do take issue with a TOC being able to take action against the passengers of another TOC. I do not think it has ever been subjected to full legal challenge and I do not believe the TOC could actually prove any loss if then passenger has not travelled on their service.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Dewsbury?! Why don't they actually just pay the staff (who would have to be there anyway to look after the gates) to check tickets?! I don't use it frequently but I have NEVER seen a member of staff outside the ticket office there. It's laziness.

Funny you should say that, as neither had I until this (Friday) lunchtime when I saw several thick-set RPIs at the bottom of the steps to platform 1.

I'd argue the bigger issues at DEW are a shortage of space for a gateline, coupled with the present use of the footbridge as a signposted step-free pedestrian route from the housing estate into town. There is the flyover as an alternative but expect noisy protests!
 

ag51ruk

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I have noticed that, when presenting a pass at the manned gates, the staff at Crewe and other places now have to put a small Yale-type key into a lock and turn it to release a gate... I wonder how long those old-fashioned and not very robust bits of kit will last? In other places the staff seem to have some sort of an electronic card to swipe.
It's doomed to fail fairly quickly if you ask me.

The gates at Crewe are not yet smart card enabled (there aren't any public smart tickets that cover that area so the functionality wasn't switched on when the gates were installed) but they are capable of accepting ITSO-type cards so that should be switched on at some point.

They can also use gate-pass card tickets, although Crewe seems reluctant to issue them for even there own staff, let alone those of us who are daily travellers but don't have tickets that operate the barriers
 

daodao

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I presume that the separate partially gating of platforms 1-3 and 4-5 at M/c Picc will result in the closure of the footbridge linking these platforms to the Metrolink station and platforms 13-14. This will increase the time required to change trains or connect to the trams. It will also cause problems for through passengers on the outward portion of their journeys, as by being forced to exit onto the station concourse they will have made a "break of journey" which would invalidate the onward portion of their ticket. A station should be either open or closed, not a mixture of the two.
 
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aformeruser

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Can you clarify what you mean by Virgin gating platforms 4 and 5?

Virgin have a franchise requirement to remove the glass and install automatic ticket gates on platforms 4 and 5 and until that happens are providing RPIs to do manual checks. I'm not 100% sure if they have done that as the most recent times I have used Piccadilly the train has been to/from platform 10 or 11 and I've used the Fairfield Street/Metrolink exit so I've not gone past those platforms for a while.
 

LowLevel

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Thats interesting and useful information to know. I do take issue with a TOC being able to take action against the passengers of another TOC. I do not think it has ever been subjected to full legal challenge and I do not believe the TOC could actually prove any loss if then passenger has not travelled on their service.

It's also not entirely correct. EMT have reciprocal revenue protection agreements with various TOCs and it's why you will see EMT RPOs carrying out revenue protection blocks at some Northern stations EMT don't go anywhere near. As far as I know EMT have no objection to other operators conducting revenue protection checks at the fringe of it's area, and Greater Anglia RPIs for example will attend their services at Norwich if required.

In addition if a criminal offence has been or is reasonably suspected to have been committed any PACE trained official can caution the person involved and report them for it.
 
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aformeruser

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There is a very strong argument for a gatelines separating local and long distance travellers to catch people taking a chance on making an ongoing journey without a valid ticket for the through route and passengers interchanging between routes with ungated stations at each end.

Large interchange stations should be split into separate zones for precisely this purpose as then you can concentrate staff at that station with the greatest footfall.

Isn't all the practical at Piccadilly as to prevent conflicts it's easiest for local trains towards Marple and Glossop and North TPE to use low numbered platforms, while South TPE and ATW's South Wales service ideally uses high number platforms as do services to Chester, Buxton and stoppers to the Airport.
 

swt_passenger

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Thats interesting and useful information to know. I do take issue with a TOC being able to take action against the passengers of another TOC. I do not think it has ever been subjected to full legal challenge and I do not believe the TOC could actually prove any loss if then passenger has not travelled on their service.

Reciprocal agreements are fully detailed in TOC penalty fare schemes. They are acting as authorised agents for each other and I can see no reason why they shouldn't do this. Or would you rather see four sets of staff in place at stations like Southampton, eg SWT, SN, XC, GWR?
 

aformeruser

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Reciprocal agreements are fully detailed in TOC penalty fare schemes. They are acting as authorised agents for each other and I can see no reason why they shouldn't do this. Or would you rather see four sets of staff in place at stations like Southampton, eg SWT, SN, XC, GWR?

EMT have a penalty fare scheme. Northern do not.
 

swt_passenger

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EMT have a penalty fare scheme. Northern do not.

They can still have reciprocal arrangements for revenue protection without a PF scheme. The lists in the agreements differentiate at a station level, and also describe the actions to be taken where some trains are subject to PF and some not, it can be dependent on direction of travel for a particular TOC.

I don't see why there is a need to try and prevent revenue protection from taking place dependent on staff employment.
 

ag51ruk

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I presume that the separate partially gating of platforms 1-3 and 4-5 at M/c Picc will result in the closure of the footbridge linking these platforms to the Metrolink station and platforms 13-14. This will increase the time required to change trains or connect to the trams. It will also cause problems for through passengers on the outward portion of their journeys, as by being forced to exit onto the station concourse they will have made a "break of journey" which would invalidate the onward portion of their ticket. A station should be either open or closed, not a mixture of the two.

There are no plans to close the footbridge at Piccadilly for access to any platform - there used to be Northern ticket checks on the bridge for passengers travelling between platforms 13/14 and the other platforms, and these may come back (or agreement may be reached amongst all of the operators to put ticket gates there instead, which would be the most sensible option)
 

Bletchleyite

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I still think just gating the whole thing would make more sense.

Local onward travel is a red herring, on most tickets it costs next to nothing (or sometimes actually nothing) to add it on.
 

ivanhoe

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If the industry took the view that gating is a tool to assist staff in ensuring that all passengers had a valid ticket to travel, instead of a tool to replace staff, then we could have good systems in place to protect revenue. Half the time, they are there to tick a box that was in the franchise. Loughborough is a an example of having gates which are frequently set at open. I suspect that there are not enough staff to ensure their operation other than at set peak times.
 

Bletchleyite

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It strikes me that if a level crossing can be remote-monitored, so should gates be able to be remote-monitored. It would just take a change in the rules.

So would it, in that case, only take say 2 staff in a TOC control room to allow gates to be closed at all times?
 

aformeruser

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They can still have reciprocal arrangements for revenue protection without a PF scheme. The lists in the agreements differentiate at a station level, and also describe the actions to be taken where some trains are subject to PF and some not, it can be dependent on direction of travel for a particular TOC.

I don't see why there is a need to try and prevent revenue protection from taking place dependent on staff employment.

At Piccadilly the RPIs did use to sell tickets to boarding passengers instead of telling them to use the ticket office or the TVMs, which is probably what annoyed Virgin as it meant commission going to Northern which it wouldn't have done if people used the Virgin managed ticket office or the mainly Virgin TVMs. It also would have reduced the number of very expensive Anytime tickets being sold, as the RPI would have sold Off Peak tickets where applicable which an on board ticket inspector would not have done.

With Northern contracted RPIs it's likely will have, on occasions, told passengers their valid ticket was in fact invalid which may have led to complaints to Virgin.
 

Mojo

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It strikes me that if a level crossing can be remote-monitored, so should gates be able to be remote-monitored. It would just take a change in the rules.

So would it, in that case, only take say 2 staff in a TOC control room to allow gates to be closed at all times?

The rules don't need to be changed. This is already permissible. Saying that, much of the stuff in the RSSB guidance documentation about having adequate gates to avoid queueing, their location, etc. seems to be ignored on many newer installations anyway!

Remote operation of gatelines is no good from either a revenue protection nor customer service perspective, other than stopping a small number of easy targets. Although it seems like that's what happens most of the time these days...
 

bunnahabhain

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Thats interesting and useful information to know. I do take issue with a TOC being able to take action against the passengers of another TOC. I do not think it has ever been subjected to full legal challenge and I do not believe the TOC could actually prove any loss if then passenger has not travelled on their service.

I've requested TPE revenue protection officers assist me on train with a couple of fare evaders before. They were fantastic and gave me their business cards and the times they're usually on our patch. Theres an agreement in place where provided they've been asked by the person in charge of the train, they are able to perform the normal range of duties onboard that service.
 

Elecman

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Virgin have a franchise requirement to remove the glass and install automatic ticket gates on platforms 4 and 5 and until that happens are providing RPIs to do manual checks. I'm not 100% sure if they have done that as the most recent times I have used Piccadilly the train has been to/from platform 10 or 11 and I've used the Fairfield Street/Metrolink exit so I've not gone past those platforms for a while.

Given Piccadilly is a Network Rail managed station Virgin can't just remove the glass it's not theirs to remove
 

6Gman

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It strikes me that if a level crossing can be remote-monitored, so should gates be able to be remote-monitored. It would just take a change in the rules.

So would it, in that case, only take say 2 staff in a TOC control room to allow gates to be closed at all times?

No, please no!

I used the remote-monitored gates at Snow Hill.

Press button.

Wait.

Press button again ... and again.

Wait.

Eventually a voice over the contraption asks me to point my ticket at a far from clear camera lens.

Then gate opens.

Good job I wasn't in a hurry!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Have virgin installed the barriers at Piccadilly yet?

No.

Yesterday a couple of not terribly interested staff each with a Sharpie.

:D
 

AndrewE

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No, please no!

I used the remote-monitored gates at Snow Hill.

Press button.

Wait.

Press button again ... and again.

Wait.

Eventually a voice over the contraption asks me to point my ticket at a far from clear camera lens.

Then gate opens.

Good job I wasn't in a hurry!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No.

Yesterday a couple of not terribly interested staff each with a Sharpie.

:D

That's like the new Weston Rd entrance/exit at Crewe then (the remote staffing bit), the monitors for use by the main gateline staff can be seen as you come off the station the old way. Luckily the gates have been left open when I've used it.
 
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