New train seats better or worse (in the past)

[Failed Unit]

The new train seats seem to be very divisive but has it always been this way? From my experience yes.

IC70s were well liked in the 70s & 80s and never really head people wanting a mk1 seat.

Pacers bus seats were never liked and people preferred the mk1 DMUs the replaced.

“BR standard outer suburban” on the 150/1 and many EMUs was mixed reviews. Very much Marmite.

Ashbourne seemed to be liked when introduced.

158s people tended not to like the A’s built seats.

Never heard complaints about the 170s.

Chapmans were like the Richmond’s are again like Marmite.

Now we have the 387s and 700s. Just really interested to know if it is always the view that seating gets worse each generation of train.

BR to be fair on 150001 put many different types in, however I never knew how to comment which was the best.

 

[infobleep]

If you go back to the 1840 I suspect train seats were better and worse depending on which class of travel you were in.

Does anyone know when wooden seats and open carriages were no longer in use on the railways? I seem to recall they were used for fifth class but I could be wrong about that.

 

[yorksrob]

I understand that the VEP seats were seen as a bit hard compared to the traditional bouncy cushions of earlier Mk1 based units. I've also read anecdotally that the IC70 seats introduced on the refurbished CEPs were seen as unduly hard by many commuters compared to those they replaced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IC70s are terrible, though they'd be fine with movable armrests. The development towards the as built 442 seat with movable armrests was a good one. Indeed, the Class 442 is/was basically the perfect evolution of the Mk3 coach with all the main problems removed (seats with fixed armrests, slam doors, slamming vestibule doors, excessive lighting). Shame they weren't all like that! The Mk2 version which was IC70 cushions fitted to old-style Mk2 seat frames was also fine if no centre armrest. (The winged Mk2 seats don't work for me for the same reason as Turbostar or Class 800 seats - the wings are too low down and hurt my shoulders).

The Mk3 EMU seat is to me OK, just a bit narrow and low. The original 158 seat again fine, it just makes poor use of space; other seats can be fitted at the same pitch and offer good legroom.

On the interim refurbs, the common Chapman is pretty decent for me, while the Richmond is terrible and they are not ageing at all well.

More recently, the Grammer IC3000, particularly the large headrest version, is excellent. The ironing board is acceptable to me, though the ScotRail/GWR contoured cushion version better. The Grammer E3000 (Desiro seat) is also very good. The one Southern uses on older Electrostars is OK but the armrests are too high, though the generous layout compensates - but I would never pay for 1st on LM unless a 319 was certain!

So there's good and bad at all times I reckon. Though I very much prefer hard and supportive than bouncy old Mk1 style.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It depends really...

THE PHOTOS ARE NOT MINE I TAKE NO CREDIT:

Mallard Seats: Brilliant for long distances in Standard. My favourite one.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewbaxterrailways/24383276786/


IC125 Seats: Quite comfortable I suppose. Armrests bad. Not good for tall people.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ardcoasters/6973908799


Grammer HST/158: Popular but I couldn’t sit on those for too long.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nuuttihyttinen/6515542987


Grammar 350/380/444: Good for journeys up to about two hours (three hours on 444s)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rail_scenes/9988583835


Chapman seating as in 143, 150/2, 317, etc. They’re quite comfortable but I wouldn’t put up with them for more than an hour.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42767052@N08/27165153354

Richmond seating as on board GWR 153s and some FGW Dynamic Lines refurbished 158s - better than the above. I’d willingly do Plymouth - Penzance on a 153, I prefer those over 150s anyday. I love the 143s the best in Devon though!

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BRC153Inside.JPG


Original 158 seating is even better than that, it is plump and cushiony, really comfortable. Only problem is trains with those seats never have much legroom. However I find GWR 158s have better standard seating than the HSTs!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rorymacveii/8728489066


Desiro 3x2 Seats are very uncomfortable- I use SWT/SWR to travel to Waterloo from Woking/Aldershot/Farnham/ Farnborough or Guildford upto four times per week - always aimed for the 159, then the 444, with the 450 last. Don’t like 360 seats either but if travelling to Colchester I’d choose a 360 over a nasty “Dusty Bin”. I’d take a 90+Mk3 though.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Class_450_interior.JPG


The seats featured on 321s, 319s, etc are really bad. Seat cushions come off, they have 3x2 seating, etc.

http://www.train-photos.com/picture/number13254.asp


Networker seats are also horrid.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:465907_Standard_Class_Interior.JPG


Fainsa seats I actually quite like! They are harder on 700s than 387s though.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:British_Rail_Class_387_Interior.jpg


I also like the typical Electrostar seat such as that featured on the 375 and 377/1-5. The one that LM and SWR 450s use in first class.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rorymacveii/8714304546


I don’t know what type of seat the 379s use but it’s very nice indeed!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34261415@N03/22912778190


Pendolino and Voyager Seats I actually like, the sort of curved head thing at the top is full of soft padding and I always feel comfortable in those seats.
Btw all you haters out there who say you hate the plastic, I’m fairly sure the seat back is metal. Painted cream.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/15610900973


Hate turbo Standard class seats but love the permanently declassified first class.

Original Standard: https://www.flickr.com/photos/londonbuses72/14370236826

Permanently declassified First:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/71625163@N02/28968256116/in/pool-gwr/

First class at the other end (not declassified) is the same but with cream leather seats - talking about the refurbishment here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/71625163@N02/28383479183/in/pool-gwr


Class 168/170/171 seating is just wonderful. Although on the exTPEX 168s (the ex ex SWT 170s) they have some nasty hard design which is different to the usual and I don’t like it at all.

The nice original 168/170/171 seating:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/34261415@N03/18771454326

Some 168s also feature the same type of seat as a 442. These I don’t like as much but they do have more support if you are tall I suppose.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/76437498@N03/9721623102

And then the unpleasant 168/3 ex TPEX (ex ex SWT 170) Seats i was talking about are featured on this video:

Adelante and Coradia Seats are pleasant enough, overrated really but if in Standard class I’d take a GWR 180 over a GWR HST probably. In first class it would be the other way round most definitely.

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/mk_tom/23471514906/


Nearly there now (sorry for the length)

345 Seats. Fine for the journeys they will be doing.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Class_345_interior_7th_July_2017_15.jpg


332 I go First with HEx so I don’t know about their standard really but it looks like it could do with some tables, though it does look quite good. (Better on the internet than in reall life those)

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:332002_DMSO_Interior.jpg


Juniper seats (334, 458) Really like these! The squashy headrest is very good! Remove the grab rails and add tables and armrests as per 460s and I’d take on happily on a Weymouth service over a 444. Yes I know they don’t run on that route!! Best 3x2 - joint with the ones below.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:458015_A_Standard_Class_Interior.JPG


318 seats:

These are featured on some 317s too. (Some have these seats some have Chapman seats in 2x2) I like the squashy feel to these, best 3x2 out there - joint with above.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/33613982611

And to conclude, in my opinion the worst seats in Britain. That of 315s, 314s and some 313s.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/91974242@N04/25959947854

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yay, someone else likes ironing boards!

To me (being tall) the best feature is that they are set quite high up.

 

[Mag_seven]

What would really be useful in these "seat threads" would be if someone could post a picture of the seat under question as I haven't a clue what is meant by some of the terms here, e.g. "mallard", "chapman" etc.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yay, someone else likes ironing boards!

To me (being tall) the best feature is that they are set quite high up.

I went on a 387 once and it almost felt cushioned! I was so pleasantly surprised!

 

[Sprinter153]

Yay, someone else likes ironing boards!

To me (being tall) the best feature is that they are set quite high up.

I've changed my mind about the Fainsa ironing boards a la 387s, they actually aren't that bad. However I really do not get along with the Quantum M100 - as on the 700s - which is basically a cheaper, harder clone.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've changed my mind about the Fainsa ironing boards a la 387s, they actually aren't that bad. However I really do not get along with the Quantum M100 - as on the 700s - which is basically a cheaper, harder clone.

Yes, they are harder.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What would really be useful in these "seat threads" would be if someone could post a picture of the seat under question as I haven't a clue what is meant by some of the terms here, e.g. "mallard", "chapman" etc.

Ok done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've changed my mind about the Fainsa ironing boards a la 387s, they actually aren't that bad. However I really do not get along with the Quantum M100 - as on the 700s - which is basically a cheaper, harder clone.

I didn't realise they were different (other than in width). I don't mind either (other than the width).

I do know the ScotRail and GWR ones have thicker contoured cushions which are more comfortable.

 

[DarloRich]

What would really be useful in these "seat threads" would be if someone could post a picture of the seat under question as I haven't a clue what is meant by some of the terms here, e.g. "mallard", "chapman" etc.

Agreed. I have no idea what make of seats they are but good ones:

VTEC/XC HST/Grand Central/Chiltern/ATW carirages + FGW

Bad: Pendolino/Voyager/Southern

 

[Failed Unit]

Although I don’t have pictures remember the original 158 seating isn’t what is currently running around northern land. The original was the same case but thinner pads thus better leg room.

If I recall it collapsed a lot so may tocs replaced the pads to the northern style ones. Loss of leg room was the result.

 

[Mag_seven]

Ok done.

Thanks - I can now have a think about this.

 

[Howardh]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ardcoasters/6973908799 my fave - I don't like the high rounded ones that, eg, you find on a pendolino, they fill the carriage, block the window view and hem you in like you're in a cell.

 

[InOban]

I'm reaching back over fifty years here,but I believe that when BR launched the MK2 in the early sixties * they experimented with different cushioning in First and Second class. They found that although people initially preferred the softer First seats, they actually were more restless in them than in the firmer Second class.

* I remember the prototype XP64 set which ran as the Talisman between KX and Edinburgh 0800 North, 1600 South.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I hate the IC70s and similar, for someone that is over 6ft, they sag, the arm rests are annoying, they're too short they offer no head support as your head hangs over the top.

The Desiro standard seats are good on the 185/350/360/444/450 and the Grammer seats on the FGW HSTS, EMT and ATW 158s are good, also quite like the seats on the 458s but never been on one for longer than an hour so maybe they are not so good.

Don't like any seat with a short back or tight on leg-room, also can't stand the Pendolinos or the Voyagers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the Pendolino UK seat to be way better than the abomination they call Standard Class on a Euro-Pendolino, complete with silly drinks holders and rubbish bins that go where my legs go.

(Can't find a photo sorry)

 

[F Great Eastern]

You should try the Polish Pendolinos, the only good thing I can say about them is they are high backed. Second class is uncomfortable and I had back pain after an hour or so, first class is essentially the same seat with little rather than almost no padding at all but still uncomfortable after 1.5 hours or so.

Standard Class
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kd85/22043120432/
https://polishrail.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/pendolino-1030200.jpg

First Class
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_Pendolino_Class_1_Interior.JPG

The Stadler FLIRTS that PKP have with the seats like the FGW HSTs are far superior in every way, in terms of PIS, seating, spacing, facilities, despite the fact that they are supposed to be a more basic train.

 

[xotGD]

I find it amazing that people know the names of all these various seat types and their manufacturers.

As I've said on another thread, the best seat I have experienced this year was in a Mark 1.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FGE - yes, those are the same terrible seats as the Swiss Pendolino. Ours are much better.

The Polish ones are non tilt too!

Only good thing is the classy lighting design.

The FLIRTs are good - spent 6 hours on one in 1st (2nd would have been OK) with no discomfort.

And for balance the PESA DART is cheap rubbish.

 

[Lukespenceruk1]

Class 376 seats are absolutely awful!

 

[DanNCL]

I as a rule prefer older designs of seat, though I quite like the seats that have been fitted on the desiros, and also the IC3000s

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does seem that Grammer are very popular in here generally (though the IC3000s got a bit of criticism when they came out for being a bit claustrophobic because of the very high back). I suspect however Fainsa are cheaper.

 

[DanNCL]

I actually don't mind the ironing board seats, but grammer seats are much better

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually don't mind the ironing board seats, but grammer seats are much better

Another ironing board fan here (particularly the GWR/Scotrail version with the contoured cushions). They are excellent for tall people, being set high up, having high backs and being thin backed so more legroom at any given pitch. I do prefer the IC3000 though, which is probably my all time favourite UK rail Standard Class seat.

 

[Bedpan]

I don't know much about the different types of seats but I can say what units I have liked/disliked travelling on, and the comfort of seats will have a large bearing on this. So I'd say - older (pre VEPS and CIGS) SR units - fine, seats well sprung, but very dusty of you hit them. (Thinking about it they could have used them on the 321s so that they could have lived up to their nickname). I always remember the entire row of passengers bouncing up and down as one when we went over the points at Wimbledon). Then there were the VEPs,with harder seats but you got used to them, and the CIGs with altogether more comfortable seats which seemed thicker. Then the 319s which at the time I thought were naff all round what with the seat cushions falling off etc but weren't too bad looking back, what with carpeted floors on the Thameslink Flyers (319/1) etc, particularly in the part which had 2x2 seating. And when they were first introduced we were treated to a trolley service - how times have changed!! But I preferred the 450s, 350s and 377s. When the 319s started to be replaced by 377/5s and later 387s, I would always try to go for the latter what what with tables and arguable more leg room. Although didn't the 377s have different seating arrangements according to the sub class?

But 700s - well I suppose they are okay for travelling a few stops on a stopper or maybe St Albans to London - but for anything longer they are absolutely dire. No tables, no armrests; you might just as well sit on a plastic seat of the type found at football grounds. It seems that their whole purpose is to move the maximum number of people in the greatest concentration during the rush hours with no thought to anything else.

 

[GodAtum]

when i was young I remember the bouncy 1st class seats on slam doors lol

 

[F Great Eastern]

FGE - yes, those are the same terrible seats as the Swiss Pendolino. Ours are much better. The Polish ones are non tilt too! Only good thing is the classy lighting design.

The whole concept of the PKP Pendolino's is ill thought out. Ordering a tilting train without a tilt, with a max speed the infrastructure will never be able to support, fitting a crap seat that is worse than the worst of the ironing boards, flooding standard class with approx 10 LCD screens that show ads all the time, not fitting them with Wifi, the list goes on and on.

Screams of style over substance and they just wanted to show off how great it was to have a Pendolino, despite they could have ordered a train with a far better interior, with Wifi, and without tilt and saved a huge load of money and provided a better experience. They paraded them around Poland like they were the Orient Express and the much higher ticket prices on them buys you an inferior experience to the supposedly lower class FLIRT.

The FLIRTs are good - spent 6 hours on one in 1st (2nd would have been OK) with no discomfort. And for balance the PESA DART is cheap rubbish.

I spent over 3.5 hours in them in First Class and not a problem whatsoever, good seats, good layout, Good Wifi and plug sockets that are easily accessible, decent tables, screens that simply act as a PIS rather than flooding you with adverts and a smooth ride and does what it says on the tin.

As for the PESA Dart, they're awful Polish Pendolino they were marketed as, I'm not so sure if that is supposed to be ironic or not! The top of the seats almost go up to the top of the windows which are already small blocking light, the lighting is not bright and are not well positioned to make a dark a claustrophobic feeling day or night and to top it all off, just to make it that little bit more depressing they decided to make the back of the seats dark grey! And that is just the start!