New trains for East Midlands Franchise

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by supervc-10, 10 Apr 2019.

  1. supervc-10

    supervc-10 Member

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    Abellio have been given the franchise for East Midlands Railway, taking over from Stagecoach. Apparently they are replacing the intercity fleet, which I take to be HSTs and the Meridians.

    Will these be bi-modes to take advantage of existing electrification out of St Pancras?

    Also, the Meridians would be a perfect cascade down to Cross-Country!

    Edit: here's the press release
     
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  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I think another statement refers to bi-modes. I reckon 80x the most likely. FLIRTs would be nice but would be slow on diesel. I think there's also the new Bombardier product, isn't there?
     
  4. supervc-10

    supervc-10 Member

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    I might have missed that, haven't finished my morning coffee yet!

    Bi-mode FLIRTs have the disadvantage of requiring the power cars, which take up space. Less of an issue with the small units being used by Greater Anglia, but potentially taking up too much space replacing a full length HST or Meridian!

    80xs would make a lot of sense IMO, and the longer car length means an increase in seating capacity.
     
  5. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I think 80x would be very suitable indeed. (Must...not...mention...the...se.....aaarghhh! :) )[1]

    But if there is no other company bidding the price could be outrageous.

    [1] Actually thinking of the only major problem with said units, Abellio have a history on all their recently awarded TOCs of not choosing the cheapest of the cheap - might they be the ones to get a different seat certified for 125mph, such as the FISA LEAN maybe?
     
  6. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

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    It's also a question on whether they'd order 7/9 car units or any 4/5 car too.
     
  7. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Worth noting that 5 x 26m is half a coach longer than 5 x 23m - would a doubled up set fit anywhere?
     
  8. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

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    The idea being to order enough longer units that you never have to double up :p
     
  9. grumpyoldman01

    grumpyoldman01 Member

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    According to the DfT press release, there will be a complete replacement of the existing HST/Meridian fleet, and Abellio "will trial hydrogen fuel cell trains on the Midland Main Line"; NO mention of bi-modes.

    In the same sentance, it states that Abellio will run "zero-carbon pilots at six stations along the route"; any ideas? Is this also a reference to traction and rolling stock?
     
  10. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    Quite a lot of enhanced services promised. I didn't think Abellio did that bad a job when they were running Northern so I hope they can deliver on these promises to East Midlands passengers
     
  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    5-car will not be adequate for that on the MML.
     
  12. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    One would assume that means e.g. solar station lighting and heat pump based heating.
     
  13. Doomotron

    Doomotron Member

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    Meridians for the Marshlink line?

    I'll get my coat...
     
  14. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    And may be some insulation too...
     
  15. grumpyoldman01

    grumpyoldman01 Member

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    If you go into more detail on the DfT website, Corby services are going to be worked by refurbished EMUs formed of 20m long vehicles - there is reference to 12-car trains in the peak.

    I can't find any references to bi-modes.

    However, St Pancras - Sheffield/Nottingham services will be worked by new 125mph trains, and there will continue to be some extensions north to Leeds and York at week-ends (no mention of Scarborough on smmer Saturdays in what I've seen so far); there will also be one service each day worked by these between London and Melton Mowbray via Corby, and two services per day between St Pancras and Lincoln. The new trains will be introduced from 2022.

    Regional services will be worked by refurbished MODERN trains; all train descriptions seem to be the same, showing air conditioning, free wifi, more luggage space, and tables at all seats, etc. So its bye-bye 153s and 156s, but not sure what's meant by modern; could some Meridian's be kept for Norwich - Derby, thereby capitalising upon their 125mph capability on the ECML between Peterborough and Grantham (see next paragraph)?

    Quite a few route changes, the major one being the splitting of the Norwich - Liverpool service; north of Nottingham will be transferred to another TOC early if the franchise, and the southern portion will then be extended west of Nottingham to Derby. Presume the TOC is TPE, so 185s? The Crewe - Derby service is being extended east to Nottingham, this giving three East Midlands services on the Derby - Nottingham axis each hour.
     
  16. Journeyman

    Journeyman Established Member

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    The final DfT franchise spec insisted upon bi-modes for the InterCity fleet and electrics for Corby services, so yes, there will be 100% new fleet of InterCity bi-modes, and that would have been the case whoever won it.
     
  17. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Which itself may well provide the capacity solution XC has been screaming out for ever since the first Voyager entered service. All the 222s to XC to allow an end to 4 and 5-car operation there?
     
  18. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I guess you have to allow for people to have missed all the previous discussions about the East Midlands franchise ITT.
     
  19. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Bombardier have previously proposed a 125mph bimode, and the line passes their factory but will have to convince any potential customer that they can deliver on time!
     
  20. grumpyoldman01

    grumpyoldman01 Member

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    True; but in view of all of the claims which have been made about bi-modes by our Secretary of State for Transport, I find it interesting that they are not mentioned at all in the information published by the DfT this morning. There is also no mention either about Corby services going electric.

    There's an interesting comment in both explanations of changes to the long distance services; from May 2020, "modern" diesel trains will start to replace HSTs.

    Class 180s perhaps?
     
  21. bnsf734

    bnsf734 Member

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    There is a link to a map on the DFT website detailing improvements to each line on a drop down list - Repeated below:

    http://maps.dft.gov.uk/east-midlands-rail-franchise/

    Too much to repeat below but in particular the Sheffield - London list shows:

    Sheffield - Derby - London
    Benefits include:

    • from May 2020, modern diesel trains will begin to replace aging HSTs. Timetable changes will enable faster journey times from December 2020
    • earlier and later train service each day to East Midlands Parkway enabling better airport connectivity
    • earlier and later trains to and from London, with a more regular evening service between London and Sheffield
    • brand-new 125mph trains will be introduced into service from April 2022 with:
      • more reliable service
      • improved comfort
      • passenger information system
      • free on-board Wi-Fi
      • at-seat power sockets
      • USB points
      • air conditioning
      • tables at all seats
      • increased luggage space
      • on-board cycle storage

    Where are these "modern diesel trains" from May 2020 coming from? I cant think of any that will become available then, and April 2022 for seems optomistic given todays problems getting new trains into service.

    The map also confirms that the Norwich - Liverpool service is to be split at Nottingham.

    For the local services "modern refurbished diesel trains"

    Class 379 for the Corbys?
     
  22. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    "Modern diesel" presumably 222s released by EMUs to Corby

    From April 2022 suggests it isn't Hitachi Bi-modes as they could be delivered sooner...
     
  23. Journeyman

    Journeyman Established Member

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    To be fair, it's hard to keep on top of it, and the insistence on pure electrics for Corby, rather than bi-modes on electric power, came late in the day.
     
  24. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I’m not so sure though. Network Rail’s enhancement delivery plans have been pretty well fixed on EMUs for Corby throughout CP5, which must presumably have reflected DfT thinking. As far back as 2016 the planning assumption was for 12 car, 3 pantographs raised, 110 mph running...
     
  25. angryskipfan

    angryskipfan Member

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    Another option for "Modern Diesel trains stopgap" could be spare MK4 sets released from ECML through wired with AR jumpers and class 67's "power cars" maintained at Toton at each end. No DVT required as "power car" at each end. Meets PRM requirements and 125 mph capability and used as a stopgap until the new trains are available? Possibly some available by end of this year.
     
  26. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Agreed, they need very good acceleration and low dwell times to make the timetable work
     
  27. grumpyoldman01

    grumpyoldman01 Member

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    My initial thought, too, but the modern diesels are due to be introduced from May 2020, and the Corby service starts FROM December 2020 (according to the DfT website)
     
  28. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    This is DfT were are talking about so a timetable rejig to use units more effectively post Derby works so one of the ex GC HSTs going off lease would be used to claim this!
    Something based on MK4 also makes sense but the 67s have been used over 100mph in a long time so the old scenario of HST power car + MK4 could also be in the mix, the bit the passenger see while travelling is more modern and recently refurbed (again)
     
  29. grumpyoldman01

    grumpyoldman01 Member

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    Press release now on Abellio website.

    Spcifically mentions bi-modes for MML services and electrics for Corby.

    Regarding regional services, it claims it will be introducing faster, modern, refurbished trains accross the whole network.

    What's modern? Does this include 158s, the oldest of which were built 30 years ago?
     
  30. Thunderer

    Thunderer Member

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    XC itself is under Government review before the award of the next franchise (hence the Arriva extension). I took part by means of survey in that review and they are scrutinising everything on XC from rolling stock to the XC network itself. Im not sure cascading Meridians would help, as then XC will have 2 incompatible fleets in 220/221 vs 222 plus additional maintenance contract headaches. It is highly likely (as hinted in the survey) that the 220/221 fleet will be replaced on XC in the new franchise with a 125mph bi-mode alternative offering more capacity. It could mean more 800/802's being built, but Bombardier have also got an equivalent (looks much better than the IET) called the Inter-City Aventra and I think Bombardier will be in the mix for future new rolling stock for XC.
     
  31. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    An all-158 fleet would not surprise me. Or 170s maybe?
     

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