New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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hwl

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No, but clause 5.9.38 b) ii. suggests they are a compliant solution because there is time to find a solution (2 and a half years before September 2021) rather than because an obvious solution already exists. That said, "solutions" such as Class 769s, battery 377s and similar are out there and could probably be implemented in time for them to come off lease.
With regards the 360s - AIUI the 379s have higher leasing costs, which was a factor in Abellio choosing to replace the 379s with the FLIRTs in the first place, so one would assume Abellio considered the 360s a better fit in terms of fleet size and leasing costs.
Oxted Tunnel is very tight fit and mk3 based EMUs don't fit so 769s are a non starter. Hence battery electrostar (and some more 3rd rail) and also substation upgrades will be required between South Croydon and Oxted as the current EMU running maxes them out any bet whether Abellio/Porterbrook/Eversholt checked with NR on what the line could take before possibly suggesting 171 transfers??? (and are willing to fund any upgrades needed)
 
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ashworth

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I too have noted that there is an expressed view that the new EMR franchise will have a regional fleet comprised from the West Midlands class 170s and the Southern 171s.
I know that there are probably very good reasons, but why can’t the West Midlands and Southern keep their old 170’s and 171’s and the East Midlands have new trains for local services. How many more new lots of trains are the West Midlands going to have. They had all those 170’s when Central Trains was broken up and now they have had their use out of them, they are getting more new trains and the East Midlands can have them back. Over simplification, I know, but it does sometimes feel a bit like that.
 

WillPS

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I know that there are probably very good reasons, but why can’t the West Midlands and Southern keep their old 170’s and 171’s and the East Midlands have new trains for local services. How many more new lots of trains are the West Midlands going to have. They had all those 170’s when Central Trains was broken up and now they have had their use out of them, they are getting more new trains and the East Midlands can have them back. Over simplification, I know, but it does sometimes feel a bit like that.
A lot of swing seats in the West Midlands, and a very pro-rail PTE. The moment Central Trains was divided up the East Midlands was always going to be the poor relation.
 

Mikey C

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I appreciate it's "easy" to change the seating layout, but although seats as individual units are relatively cheap amongst the many items bought for trains, the number of them required increases the cost considerably and it's bound to have in impact upon the leasing cost.

But if the leasing cost is considerably lower - even after refurbishment/re-seating - then going for a 360 instead of a 379 is a no-brainer; thanks to 43074 for than information.
Something a bit amusing about Abellio deciding to replace BOTH the 360s and 379s from one franchise (Greater Anglia) and then seemingly having a choice between the 2 for another franchise. And knowing ALL about them.

Even if the 360s are cheaper than the 379s are at the moment, if faced with no further use for its stock, surely the lessor would reduce the price to make the 379s more attractive?
 

hwl

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The vampire kangaroo owns the 379s so don't expect much logic. They will presumably also want a home for all 30.

The 21x GA 360s is the perfect number for Corby.
 

Bletchleyite

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The supposed fear of cramped seating was probably completely illogical given that the extra length was all in the saloon area between bulkheads, and 3m easily allows for 12 seats. I remember comparing the HST/Mk 3 and IEP cabin lengths off technical drawings and as a percentage increase in length it easily allowed for the higher capacity. The post about it is probably in the class 800 thread somewhere...
And indeed for all the downsides of the 80x seating, cramped is one thing it definitely is not - the spacing is very generous indeed. Only Classes 175/180 and 444 (the latter of course being quite a similar interior) come close, give or take the "odd case" of the 319/2s.
 

Bletchleyite

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I know that there are probably very good reasons, but why can’t the West Midlands and Southern keep their old 170’s and 171’s and the East Midlands have new trains for local services. How many more new lots of trains are the West Midlands going to have. They had all those 170’s when Central Trains was broken up and now they have had their use out of them, they are getting more new trains and the East Midlands can have them back. Over simplification, I know, but it does sometimes feel a bit like that.
As Northern are discovering, 170s are not great for local stopping services, having very poor fuel and transmission oil consumption and very slow acceleration. Unless of course Abellio plan to fit a mechanical gearbox in place of the Voith hydrodynamic one?
 

westinghouseB

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A 12 car 360 would require 3 Train Managers! As we fought hard to get the current method of work for multi unit non gangway trains and the requirement for a TM in all units!
 

LowLevel

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A 12 car 360 would require 3 Train Managers! As we fought hard to get the current method of work for multi unit non gangway trains and the requirement for a TM in all units!
Train managers or hosts at a push. However I don't think in a million years that's going to happen. It's effectively a new service and method of work and a class 360 is nothing like a 222.

We have to be vigilant on potential moves towards DOO or DCO but I don't think running a shortish distance train with 3 expensive train managers is going to fly.

I'd be interested to see how it develops.
 

Bletchleyite

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A 12 car 360 would require 3 Train Managers! As we fought hard to get the current method of work for multi unit non gangway trains and the requirement for a TM in all units!
Such a requirement is not sensible for a commuter/regional express-style operation and is not the case on any of the commuter operations so I doubt it would continue.
 
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Mikey C

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Wouldn't gangwayed stock like the 350/2s be more practical than the non gangwayed 360s? 110mph capable too.
 

LowLevel

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Or 0 at Anglia
We aren't interested in facilitating DOO trains on our patch (if Abellio go down that road it'll be the same sour end as every other new franchise) but in any case 360s have been guard operated as well as DOO since introduction.
 

Class 170101

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Not aware of any EMU maintenance facilities between St Pancras and Corby mind you - anyone any thoughts on where these EMUs would be maintained?
 

Nym

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Don't forget there's Stadler, CAF and Siemens as well, I'm hoping that Abellio don't go for Bombardier, as their 222s are terribly designed, and the build quality coud be much improved, the Hitachi 80xs have a really good design, but really poor build quality
I'm sorry, good design?

  • Having PEA buttons sat in the luggage racks, no really, look at them, they're IN the racks.
  • 5min of idling to set off filling the saloon with diesel fumes
  • Bins with direct access by hand into the electrical cabinets, not fire rated by the way.
  • Batteries that barely hold up the lighting for more than 20 mins and requires a manual reset every 5 after under-volting thereafter.
  • Inter Vehicle Jumpers
    • That you can climb
    • That can be removed with a 7mm flat blade screwdriver
    • That are formed of surface mounted fixed ends with conduit tails passing to the under frame with under frame sealing with blank gunk and no actual conduit terminations (On the Italian, British and Japanese Units).
  • Pantographs that require millimetre accurate placement for their M24 fittings that are tapped holes in the roof insulators rather than the more sensible stud arrangment
I'm sure I could come up with some more if I ever have the misfortune to work on them any more.

These are all aspects of good design nowerdays? I'd hate to see a bad design!

Oh and as a PS:
A good design would generally be compatible with the existing Signalling System with it's EMC (Electromagnetic Compatibility) profile, without having to go carry out a load of work on track circuits north of York.
 
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Aictos

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Currently, "Hitachi italy" has been busy in orders and production of a large amount of double-decker vehicles.
Hitachi UK aycliffe plans plant expansion.In addition, from a previous.
Therefore,Production in Italy as long as the incredibly orders do not overlap, I think that there is no.
That’s beside the point, people talk about Class 180s being the unreliable but they’ve got nothing on the V250s!
 

angryskipfan

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Not aware of any EMU maintenance facilities between St Pancras and Corby mind you - anyone any thoughts on where these EMUs would be maintained?
The plan is Bedford cauldwell depot. Some roads reactivated for maintenance. It is a modern depot after all. Some 700s stabled elsewhere.
 

TheJoyOfSix

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What's wrong with a DTS - TSP - PC - TS - TS - PC - TS - TSB - PC- TFP - DTF style FLIRT? 7500+hp on diesel, 7000hp on electric, equivalent length of 9 coaches, seating equivalent of 7.5. That should get a wriggle on, do 125mph and be easily and quickly built by Stadler as they are already producing the basics vehicles for AGA.

DTS = Driving Trailer Second
TSP = Trailer Second Pantograph
PC = Power Car
TSB = Trailer Second Buffet
TFP = Trailer First Pantograph
DTF = Driving Trailer First
 

43096

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What's wrong with a DTS - TSP - PC - TS - TS - PC - TS - TSB - PC- TFP - DTF style FLIRT? 7500+hp on diesel, 7000hp on electric, equivalent length of 9 coaches, seating equivalent of 7.5. That should get a wriggle on, do 125mph and be easily and quickly built by Stadler as they are already producing the basics vehicles for AGA.

DTS = Driving Trailer Second
TSP = Trailer Second Pantograph
PC = Power Car
TSB = Trailer Second Buffet
TFP = Trailer First Pantograph
DTF = Driving Trailer First
Better to move the power cars to each end and use the Class 68 as the basis for them.
 

hwl

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What's wrong with a DTS - TSP - PC - TS - TS - PC - TS - TSB - PC- TFP - DTF style FLIRT? 7500+hp on diesel, 7000hp on electric, equivalent length of 9 coaches, seating equivalent of 7.5. That should get a wriggle on, do 125mph and be easily and quickly built by Stadler as they are already producing the basics vehicles for AGA.

DTS = Driving Trailer Second
TSP = Trailer Second Pantograph
PC = Power Car
TSB = Trailer Second Buffet
TFP = Trailer First Pantograph
DTF = Driving Trailer First
Equivalent total length is only 7.75x 23m coaches. (~178m) or did you mean 20m coaches?
EM ideally could use 240m lenght trains to maximise St Pancras.

The axle loadings to take the big fuel tanks would eliminate the ability to use advantageous speed differentials.
 

cactustwirly

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What's wrong with a DTS - TSP - PC - TS - TS - PC - TS - TSB - PC- TFP - DTF style FLIRT? 7500+hp on diesel, 7000hp on electric, equivalent length of 9 coaches, seating equivalent of 7.5. That should get a wriggle on, do 125mph and be easily and quickly built by Stadler as they are already producing the basics vehicles for AGA.

DTS = Driving Trailer Second
TSP = Trailer Second Pantograph
PC = Power Car
TSB = Trailer Second Buffet
TFP = Trailer First Pantograph
DTF = Driving Trailer First
It's unlikely to be a GA Flirt clone, as these would need to to 125 on Diesel mode.
However I expect it to be based on the SMILE with underfloor engines on each coach.
 
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