New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[Goldfish62]

A split in the Norwich - Liverpool service is a real backwards step.

Although a lot on here try and claim everyone just goes via London whenever it's discussed as a semi regular user of the service I see the opposite. Really disappointing.

I agree. Whereas it might look good on a map on a desk at the DfT, splitting the service imports "connection anxiety" which can be enough to tip the balance in favour of driving for some people.

 

[squizzler]

If all of the Meridians are being replaced, what is the hang-up with the bi-modes having to run just as fast under diesel as trains that will no longer be running?

Lower powered bi-modes would be more fuel efficient, more reliable, and allow for a speed-up as the electrification programme restarts.

 

[Goldfish62]

If all of the Meridians are being replaced, what is the hang-up with the bi-modes having to run just as fast under diesel as trains that will no longer be running?

Lower powered bi-modes would be more fuel efficient, more reliable, and allow for a speed-up as the electrification programme restarts.

I don't think it is going to restart. It wasn't "paused", but cancelled I believe.

 

[TheBigD]

if i remember correctly :
1tph london-nottingham
1tph london-sheffield.

ketterting to corby in those days was a dmu

Both Nottingham and Sheffield didn't go hourly all day until the early 1990s. In 1989 timetable the service on the MML was every 90 minutes to Leicester, every 90 minutes to Nottingham and every 90 minutes to Sheffield. This gave Leicester to London a train every 30 minutes. The stopping pattern south of Leicester could only be described as random.

 

[dk1]

Both Nottingham and Sheffield didn't go hourly all day until the early 1990s. In 1989 timetable the service on the MML was every 90 minutes to Leicester, every 90 minutes to Nottingham and every 90 minutes to Sheffield. This gave Leicester to London a train every 30 minutes. The stopping pattern south of Leicester could only be described as random.

Don't you mean every 45mins to Leicester?

 

[hwl]

They won't be scrapped and neither will the 156s. Northern have stated they want to start getting rid of Sprinters before the end of the franchise. They cannot get rid of all of them but could get rid of most 150s.

Porterbook own 9 of 15 EMT 156s, 9 of 9 GA 156s and 11 of 26 EMT 158s. They own 11 Northern 150s.

Angel Trains own 6 of 15 EMT 156s, 15 of 26 EMT 158s and all 24 TfW 158s. They own all 19 GWR 150s and most Northern 150s.

Both Roscos have an incentive to swap units because there is very little chance of future franchise operators of Northern and GWR having long leases of 150s, they will be at the top of the list to get rid of. They might as well place units which could stay long term.

My bet for EMR regional fleet is 170s and 175s. That meets the description provided, abet with irony.

Agree on the 170s and 175s.

150s are really useful as regards dwell times and standing capacity on some routes and the bodyshell may well also be a far longer lasting design.
Northern have plenty of 153 and 155 to go first as well.
With 158 as 90mph units and the 156s as 75mph units there may well be some 156 replacement.

Many operators (e.g. SWR, GWR, Northern, Scotrail) will find the ability to add a few extra units of the same class as they have already got quite useful to address capacity issues. (In some case to address reliability issues due to shifting engine maintenance to *#).

Recovering engines, transmissions, final drives and bogies from any scrapped sprinters will help with fleet reliability by increasing the float of parts going for overhaul.

 

[laststop@96]

Quite a lot of enhanced services promised. I didn't think Abellio did that bad a job when they were running Northern so I hope they can deliver on these promises to East Midlands passengers

But look at the mess they have scotrail in.

 

[dk1]

Don't you mean every 45mins to Leicester?

Actually I see you meant a Leicester terminator every 90mins. I don't remember those.

 

[TheBigD]

Don't you mean every 45mins to Leicester?

No. Every 30 minutes London - Leicester comprising of...
1 x St Pancras to Leicester every 90 minutes.
1 x St Pancras to Nottingham every 90 minutes.
1 x St Pancras to Sheffield every 90 minutes.

 

[hwl]

If all of the Meridians are being replaced, what is the hang-up with the bi-modes having to run just as fast under diesel as trains that will no longer be running?

Lower powered bi-modes would be more fuel efficient, more reliable, and allow for a speed-up as the electrification programme restarts.

Journey times increasing and timetables not working.

Low performance is not a badge of honour...

Not expect any wires beyond MH any time soon.

 

[TheBigD]

Actually I see you meant a Leicester terminator every 90mins. I don't remember those.

I remember them well as one my first placements on the railway YTS scheme in 1988/89 was cleaning and placing the seat reservation and window labels on the Leicester terminaters.

 

[dk1]

I remember them well as one my first placements on the railway YTS scheme in 1988/89 was cleaning and placing the seat reservation and window labels on the Leicester terminaters.

I remember them well as one my first placements on the railway YTS scheme in 1988/89 was cleaning and placing the seat reservation and window labels on the Leicester terminaters.

Checking the GBTT starting 14th May 1990 & looks as if this is where the hourly off-peak pattern started SX. The xx:00 went to Sheffield whilst the xx:30 served Nottingham. The intermediates appear to still be every third train so as having alternate trains to both destinations every 3 hours! Saturday's reverted to the 90min frequency albeit without the Leicesters meaning hour long gaps.

 

[anamyd]

They won't be scrapped and neither will the 156s. Northern have stated they want to start getting rid of Sprinters before the end of the franchise. They cannot get rid of all of them but could get rid of most 150s.

Porterbook own 9 of 15 EMT 156s, 9 of 9 GA 156s and 11 of 26 EMT 158s. They own 11 Northern 150s.

Angel Trains own 6 of 15 EMT 156s, 15 of 26 EMT 158s and all 24 TfW 158s. They own all 19 GWR 150s and most Northern 150s.

Both Roscos have an incentive to swap units because there is very little chance of future franchise operators of Northern and GWR having long leases of 150s, they will be at the top of the list to get rid of. They might as well place units which could stay long term.

My bet for EMR regional fleet is 170s and 175s. That meets the description provided, abet with irony.

why 170s and 175s, rather than 170s and 158s...? As I said only a few posts above yours, the next operator of the 175s after TfW should be the person controlling the crusher! Newer is only better if it's not a piece of cost-cut scrap (sad to say - don't get me wrong, the 175s have a nice onboard travelling atmosphere, but that isn't everything - they're just not reliable or solidly built enough to not be "done" after only 25 years, with the engine fires due to poor cooling and steel bodies that have been corroding like those on much older 150s). 158s and 170s are both solid, reliable, and predominantly aluminium bodied trains.

 

[mt4958]

When the MML had Class 170 turbostars, I understand their top-speed of 100mph caused significant pathing issues (as the services were interlaced with HSTs at 115mph). The Meridians made things a lot simpler. More slow lines have been built between Bedford and Corby since then but I imagine any rolling stock for the Corby services would be capable of 115mph to keep things simple.

 

[anamyd]

Agree on the 170s and 175s.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but why 170s and 175s rather than 170s and 158s...? Why replace units that are solid, reliable and aluminium (like the 170s) with ones that are overheating steel fireballs that should be crushed when TfW are done with them...?

 

[anamyd]

And then I read one of the TfW threads and it talks about the 175 overhaul programme which is about to start at Widnes Maybe the 175s could survive and transfer to East Midlands Railway and not catch on fire after all

 

[swt_passenger]

It clearly says in both the DfT and Abellio press releases refurbished modern trains for regional services. I suspect the minister is being a politician in that 'new' means whatever you want it to mean. I'd take those documents over a single comment from a minister that can be read multiple ways. It does imply the existing fleet may be heading for the bin though.

“New” as an abbreviation of “newer”, then or a shorter way of saying “different”. Politicians, eh...

 

[hwl]

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but why 170s and 175s rather than 170s and 158s...? Why replace units that are solid, reliable and aluminium (like the 170s) with ones that are overheating steel fireballs that should be crushed when TfW are done with them...?

Given that the complete regional fleet is going to get replaced that suggests no 158s unless they come from TfW!
Agree they would probably be more sensible sticking with 158s but given that appears not to be happening discussion has moved on to what might be happening

 

[Chester1]

why 170s and 175s, rather than 170s and 158s...? As I said only a few posts above yours, the next operator of the 175s after TfW should be the person controlling the crusher! Newer is only better if it's not a piece of cost-cut scrap (sad to say - don't get me wrong, the 175s have a nice onboard travelling atmosphere, but that isn't everything - they're just not reliable or solidly built enough to not be "done" after only 25 years, with the engine fires due to poor cooling and steel bodies that have been corroding like those on much older 150s). 158s and 170s are both solid, reliable, and predominantly aluminium bodied trains.

Because the announcement was that the regional fleet would be replaced. Swapping 158s for other 158s doesn't meet that, if they decided to do it they would not have mentioned it. I was in favour of a keeping all 158s, getting rid of 153s and 156s and taking TfWs 158s for a uniform regional fleet. Hopefully most will end up with Northern now.

 

[squizzler]

I don't think it is going to restart. It wasn't "paused", but cancelled I believe.

Journey times increasing and timetables not working.

Low performance is not a badge of honour...

Not expect any wires beyond MH any time soon.

I think the pause in electrification will be temporary anyway. Its very likely the recently announced Campaign to Electrify Britain's Railway Roadshow will rock up someplace in MML territory and show the local influencers what electrification is all about (again!).

 

[CosherB]

TPE 68s and Mk5s to operate Liverpool to Nottingham .....?

 

[edwin_m]

I think the pause in electrification will be temporary anyway. Its very likely the recently announced Campaign to Electrify Britain's Railway Roadshow will rock up someplace in MML territory and show the local influencers what electrification is all about (again!).

I'm sure the local influencers are well aware of this, but the influencer that counts is in Epsom.

 

[Elecman]

I'm sure the local influencers are well aware of this, but the influencer that counts is in Epsom.

For the time being but not for ever hopefully

 

[Chester1]

TPE 68s and Mk5s to operate Liverpool to Nottingham .....?

That is what I would like to see. Much depends on whether TPE wants or can secure lease extensions for some of the 22 x 185s going off lease in the next year. There is a real chance they will go to Ireland instead. Eversholt will lease them based on their profit. If TPE cannot get 185 lease extensions then extra 802s would be the quickest option for brand new stock. They would be wasted on Liverpool-Nottingham but would be suited to Liverpool-Scarborough or Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough.

 

[387star]

Do the new high trains have buffers or will it be trolley only?

More of the same for the next crosscountry franchise which has hats to be replaced? 222 and 220/221 combos would hardly be ideal.

 

[387star]

I think 80x would be very suitable indeed. (Must...not...mention...the...se.....aaarghhh! )[1]

But if there is no other company bidding the price could be outrageous.

[1] Actually thinking of the only major problem with said units, Abellio have a history on all their recently awarded TOCs of not choosing the cheapest of the cheap - might they be the ones to get a different seat certified for 125mph, such as the FISA LEAN maybe?

Yeah I was thinking Abellio look like they are ensuring the interiors are of a decent quality

 

[387star]

The new Class 185 interior is absolutely lovely - seriously classy, not far off ICE standard - and is ideal for this kind of long-run regional express. Would be more than happy to spend 3+ hours on one.

Very large overhead racks also help.

The only bad thing is the layout of 1st with a bit of Standard and a toilet trapped past it.

All desiros have good overhead racks

It is a shame the basics are so hard to get right with trains these days

Seat comfort
Legroom
Luggage space
Window seat alignment
Enough coaches

Trains really are the future as we head towards climate meltdown

 

[Bletchleyite]

All desiros have good overhead racks

I can confirm 444s do...a 30kg 105 litre rucksack went up there quite happily on Sunday, and properly on so no risk of falling off. Though I'd imagine most people might have a job lifting something like that up.

 

[tbtc]

My bet is EMT 156's probably move to northern, expand the fleet and allow them to rid themselves of a few 150's...

I know we are going off topic a little, but I can't see much need for Northern to get rid of 150s - they have plenty of unelectrified routes where top speed is rarely above fifty mph but wide doors are needed to cope with loading/unloading at key stations - something that the 150s are suited to.

Meanwhile, the faster/ longer distance routes are being (slowly) electrified, so less need for Northern's DMUs designed for longer distance operation.

Whilst a 156 (or 158 etc) would be an upgrade over a 150, Northern will have plenty of routes better suited to 150s (good luck getting people off/on a 156 at Piccadilly's 13/14 as quickly).

If anything they could be ordering 230s and replacing 158s!

 

[Chester1]

I know we are going off topic a little, but I can't see much need for Northern to get rid of 150s - they have plenty of unelectrified routes where top speed is rarely above fifty mph but wide doors are needed to cope with loading/unloading at key stations - something that the 150s are suited to.

Meanwhile, the faster/ longer distance routes are being (slowly) electrified, so less need for Northern's DMUs designed for longer distance operation.

Whilst a 156 (or 158 etc) would be an upgrade over a 150, Northern will have plenty of routes better suited to 150s (good luck getting people off/on a 156 at Piccadilly's 13/14 as quickly).

If anything they could be ordering 230s and replacing 158s!

Northern have express a wish to start replacing sprinters once the pacers go. I agree about Castlefield services, replacing 150s with 156s and 158s would be a bad idea because of dwell times. There are plenty of other routes where they are better Angel Trains owns most of Northerns 150s and won't want a complete wipeout early next franchise. It would make sense for them to agree a deal and transfer some of EMTs redundant stock to Northern.

If EMR replaces the regional fleet with 170s and 175s they would be a bit overkill for routes currently operated by 153s.