New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[WesternLancer]

It's an excellent question. Here's where we are:

Current (various) TOC plans mean at present, there aren't enough 170s available / will be available soon.

I haven't seen any confirmation the "new" trains will be 170s, but it seems likely as there aren't any other units in a good number that would provide an upgrade to the 15x class (not enough 175s, 180s, 185s to fulfil the single stock type requirement for EMR Regional trains).

Abellio have said they will end up with just 3 types of stock, but I can't find any documents to link to this.
They would have had some sort of half baked plan on how this would happen before announcing this.

HERE is a potential plan to enable enough 170s for East Mids, but requires a lot of swapping about. However, all between Abellio companies so may be easier to accomplish and enable better fleet harmonisation.

Seen some people suggesting Southern will surrender their 171s.
But I haven't seen anything suggesting what Southern will get to replace them, whether they can logistically send their 171s to the Midlands, nor that Southern are looking to get rid of them. Red herring?

VOYAGERS CANNOT RUN TO STANSTED so XC cannot give their 170s up.

and thanks also for the helpful embedded link.

 

[Ryry]

What is the plan for east Midlands class 153s are they going join them to make 2 cars or cascade them else where

 

[Jozhua]

I think the 222's going to Cross Country is likely. I'm unsure if they would be able to replace the 170's though, so they can go to EMR, mostly due to numbers.
27 222's and 29 170's so it would be a reduction in fleet size, even if each train was longer. That's forgetting all the other areas that desperately need a capacity increase, that the deployment of 222's could drastically help. The mixture of train lengths would also be a bit of a headache, with them ranging from 4/5 car (suitable for 170 replacement) to 7 car, which wouldn't really be as suitable.

Perhaps if XC manage to acquire some new Turbostar Replacements (Perhaps a class 195 or two ) then that could free up some 170's for EMR. 100mph capable 4-car DMUs could be ideal! *sarcasm* If all else fails, I'm sure XC could deploy some 230's to plug the gap. The better acceleration would more than make up for the lower top speed! */sarcasm*

 

[RealTrains07]

I think the 222's going to Cross Country is likely. I'm unsure if they would be able to replace the 170's though, so they can go to EMR, mostly due to numbers.
27 222's and 29 170's so it would be a reduction in fleet size, even if each train was longer. That's forgetting all the other areas that desperately need a capacity increase, that the deployment of 222's could drastically help. The mixture of train lengths would also be a bit of a headache, with them ranging from 4/5 car (suitable for 170 replacement) to 7 car, which wouldn't really be as suitable.

Perhaps if XC manage to acquire some new Turbostar Replacements (Perhaps a class 195 or two ) then that could free up some 170's for EMR. 100mph capable 4-car DMUs could be ideal! *sarcasm* If all else fails, I'm sure XC could deploy some 230's to plug the gap. The better acceleration would more than make up for the lower top speed! */sarcasm*

XC just need the 222s for capacity increase in general

 

[krus_aragon]

27 222's and 29 170's so it would be a reduction in fleet size, even if each train was longer.

How many of XC's 170 units double-up on a diagram (e.g. 2 x 2-car)?

XC just need the 222s for capacity increase in general

Virgin's 221s became available today too!

 

[Jozhua]

Virgin's 221s became available today too!

Yes! Just heard about this news.

Either the 222's could go to a different operator or both the 222's and 221's go to XC, with them taking the place of the 170 fleet.
That way they would be running 3 classes of very similar trains, plus HSTs. (In fact perhaps with this many MU's the HSTs could leave XC's fleet.)

So perhaps the XC 170's may make their way over to EMR. Does anyone know how soon regional fleet replacement will start?
Perhaps the West Midland 170's could come in first to replace the 153's and 156's and then the remaining 158's could be replaced by more 170's at a later date.

Liverpool-Norwich is being split and Liverpool-Nottingham moves to a different franchise at some point, so they could either take the 158's, or as rumour has it use 185's.
185's already run the Hope Valley, however, they'd need to be doubled up to preserve capacity, the fuel consumption is high and they can't use the speed differentials on the route. 158's have issues with luggage space, however this could probably be resolved with a quick refit if a new franchise takes them.

 

[TheBigD]

How many of XC's 170 units double-up on a diagram (e.g. 2 x 2-car)?

Mondays to Fridays one all day diagram, 0707 Nottingham-Cardiff,
1045 Cardiff-Nottingham,
1441 Nottingham-Birmingham,
1619 Birmingham-Nottingham,
1807 Nottingham-Cardiff (as far as Birmingham).

The second 2 x 2 car diagram works the 0720 Leicester-Birmingham, then goes to Tyseley and is then split for the 1609 & 1709 Birmingham-Leicester services.

The 2222 Birmingham-Leicester is also a double 170.

 

[krus_aragon]

Mondays to Fridays one all day diagram, 0707 Nottingham-Cardiff,
1045 Cardiff-Nottingham,
1441 Nottingham-Birmingham,
1619 Birmingham-Nottingham,
1807 Nottingham-Cardiff (as far as Birmingham).

The second 2 x 2 car diagram works the 0720 Leicester-Birmingham, then goes to Tyseley and is then split for the 1609 & 1709 Birmingham-Leicester services.

The 2222 Birmingham-Leicester is also a double 170.

Excellent, thanks. That would suggest that 27 222s should be able to stretch to cover the work of 28 (effectively) 170s, with a few tweaks to the timetable.

 

[TheBigD]

Excellent, thanks. That would suggest that 27 222s should be able to stretch to cover the work of 28 (effectively) 170s, with a few tweaks to the timetable.

Only 4 of the 222s (222101-104) would fit in platform 2 at Stansted. Not sure what you're planning on doing to the Stansted Airport to Birmingham route.

 

[krus_aragon]

Only 4 of the 222s (222101-104) would fit in platform 2 at Stansted. Not sure what you're planning on doing to the Stansted Airport to Birmingham route.

I don't know that end of the route well enough to plan anything in detail (I'm more familiar with the Cardiff-Nottingham route). But the 222s were originally built as 7 x 9-car and 20 x 4-car (iirc), so there's scope for re-forming them again.

 

[sprinterguy]

What is the plan for east Midlands class 153s are they going join them to make 2 cars or cascade them else where

They're leaving the franchise, being replaced by 170s if the graphic for the new livery released a little while ago is correct.

 

[The Ham]

I don't know that end of the route well enough to plan anything in detail (I'm more familiar with the Cardiff-Nottingham route). But the 222s were originally built as 7 x 9-car and 20 x 4-car (iirc), so there's scope for re-forming them again.

Indeed, however would it not be better for XC to take ~20*158's from EMT (to run the Stansted services in pairs) along with the 222's in exchange for the 170's.

That could allow some of the 222's to be used to strengthen the current 220/221 fleets. You could even end up with a fleet of:
- 17*5 coach units to cover the remaining 17/28 units
- 1*4 coach unit to provide extra capacity or act as a spare to the above
- 6*8 coach units (comparable to a 4+5) to provide extra units to provide extra capacity to the current 220/221 fleets.

If you really wanted to you could swap 25*2 (50 coaches) for 10*3 coach 158/159's and 10 central coaches (total of 40 coaches), so XC had a fleet of 4 coach 158/159's. (Note it could be that XC could use 1 end coach as a middle coach much as others have done, as long as it's only one then there's still going to be extra capacity over running 2+2)

The likes of SWR could then run more 10 coach trains by having 3+3+2+2 rather than 3+3+3, others may then also then be able to run more 4 coach services rather than 3 coach services.

 

[krus_aragon]

Indeed, however would it not be better for XC to take ~20*158's from EMT (to run the Stansted services in pairs) along with the 222's in exchange for the 170's.

That's good thinking.

 

[swt_passenger]

The same applies to Reading iirc if Voyagers end up doubling up on the Bournemouth route. Man Picc will also end up losing the ability to double up units terminating in some bay platforms...

Many XC Bournemouth and Southampton services use the through platforms, I suspect they’d have little problem fitting in more doubled trains. There’s actually only a minority use the bay P3 over the course of a day.

 

[transmanche]

Indeed, however would it not be better for XC to take ~20*158's from EMT (to run the Stansted services in pairs) along with the 222's in exchange for the 170's.

Would it not be better for XC to think about ordering some new trains, rather than taking on 30 year-old units which, realistically, will have a limited lifespan?

 

[The Ham]

Would it not be better for XC to think about ordering some new trains, rather than taking on 30 year-old units which, realistically, will have a limited lifespan?

It depends on if it's a new franchise which is able to order new trains or an extension (which would be less likely to be able to do so).

If it's just another extension then taking on trains which will then have to be replaced as part of the next franchise is no bad thing.

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread is about new trains for the EMR franchise. Discussion about possible future trains for CrossCountry or diagrams for existing CrossCountry services are off-topic.

 

[Qwerty133]

What is the plan for east Midlands class 153s are they going join them to make 2 cars or cascade them else where

Nothing is 100% but I'd have thought the 153s will be moved to Booths Rotherham hopefully by the end of the year to be reformatted as soft drink vessels or household appliances.

 

[WesternLancer]

Nothing is 100% but I'd have thought the 153s will be moved to Booths Rotherham hopefully by the end of the year to be reformatted as soft drink vessels or household appliances.

with the diesel rolling stock shortage one might think perhaps not.

Wouldn't many Pacer users favour a pair of 153s over a Pacer?

 

[Class 170101]

with the diesel rolling stock shortage one might think perhaps not.

Wouldn't many Pacer users favour a pair of 153s over a Pacer?

As long as the small cab is buried rather than the normal cab otherwise drivers might complain.

 

[Prestige15]

According to RAIL issue 885. EMR has comfirmed that the 800 will be 24 meters long, Will have four diesel engine per train (1 driver vehicle powered) and the nose design will be slightly altered

 

[Chiltern006]

According to RAIL issue 885. EMR has comfirmed that the 800 will be 24 meters long, Will have four diesel engine per train (1 driver vehicle powered) and the nose design will be slightly altered

Are they going to be 803s then???

 

[Nick Ashwell]

That would be the most logical but at this point who knows

 

[hwl]

That would be the most logical but at this point who knows

Take 2 dice and roll to get the last 2 digits

 

[krus_aragon]

Take 2 dice and roll to get the last 2 digits

Isn't that how Northern allocate their units?

 

[samuelmorris]

Are they going to be 803s then???

I'm possibly expecting the open-access ECT units to be 803s since they have no need to be bi-mode but are unlikely to be 801s due to not being DfT-commissioned. I think 804s or something totally random like 888 is more likely for the EMR units.

 

[RealTrains07]

Are the 156s gonna be replaced even after more are transferred in order to replace the 153s

what is the plan for 156s long term?

 

[krus_aragon]

Are the 156s gonna be replaced even after more are transferred in order to replace the 153s

what is the plan for 156s long term?

<cynic>The next Northern franchise?</cynic>

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

EMR are replacing ALL their existing stock

So is this the plan:

• HST's start to be withdrawn from May 2020 and replaced by Class 180 and Class 222's from Corby (from December 2020), fully withdrawn by the end of next year
• ALL Class 222's and Class 180's replaced by New bi-mode Hitachi AT300's by the end of 2022
• Class 153's replaced by Class 156's (from GA) and Class 170's from Scotrail?

My question is what replaces the Class 156's and 158's??? More 170's?

 

[RealTrains07]

My question is what replaces the Class 156's and 158's??? More 170's?

Thats what iam wondering cause Scotrail have no other 170s free and all of GAs 170s are going to wales so their are not a huge amount of options

156s must be staying long term