New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[edwin_m]

Predominantly so an extra generator unit can fit in the same design that uses driving trailers. 10x24m will also be a better use of space than 9x26m (where 10x26m would be too long)

As far as I can see the platform length issue is the main reason to go for a 24m car, and Hitachi have found a way of fitting the generator unit under a 24m vehicle including one of the end cars. With a 26m vehicle they would either have had to go for a whole fleet of 9-car sets, increasing their rolling stock costs significantly, or a mix of 4-car and 5-car which would be awkward to diagram (and the 4-cars would be underpowered with only 3 engines).

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd imagine the likes of Leicester and Derby would be at least as problematic as st Pancras if not more so. Especially at Leicester where the current layout has lines for platforms separating at the very last minute at the northern end and a bridge over the railway at the southern end.

As noted above by edwinm, no issues at either of those: The platforms at Leicester are between 270 (Down platform 1) and 288 metres (Up platform 4) long, and the through platforms at Derby all 334 - 338 metres long.

The 260m maximum length of the platforms at St Pancras is definitely one of the main limiting factors, which would be a bit of a tight squeeze for the 252m length of a pair of standard 5-car class 802s, especially if units are joining or splitting in the platform.

 

[OTRail]

Quick question about the 360s - are the TFL ones also going to EMR or is it only going to be the Greater Anglia units transferring?

 

[samuelmorris]

Quick question about the 360s - are the TFL ones also going to EMR or is it only going to be the Greater Anglia units transferring?

As far as I know, only the GA units. The 360/2s don't seem to have a future user at the moment.

 

[trebor79]

I think another statement refers to bi-modes. I reckon 80x the most likely. FLIRTs would be nice but would be slow on diesel.

They go like the proverbial on diesel! Phenomenal performance.

 

[samuelmorris]

They go like the proverbial on diesel! Phenomenal performance.

Agreed, from videos like
(2m36 timestamp as Railforums don't support them)

you'd have no idea they weren't EMUs.

 

[Mikey C]

I highly doubt the interim Managing Director would lie, knowingly or not, about such a matter...

The Southern 171s will be part of the EMR fleet by the end of 2022, regardless of what the TOC may or may not have said, as they have very little say in the matter anyway. It is a matter for Porterbrook/Eversholt as they are ultimately their assets, from their point of view it doesn't matter where they run as long as they generate revenue (i.e. a TOC is leasing them), and if they can guarantee use for several years beyond the end of the current GTR franchise then it is a win-win for the ROSCOs.

Surely it doesn't work like that without some sort of "permission"?. Imagine if an open operator or Irish Railways decided to poach some Northern 195s by offering a better deal to the ROSCO?

 

[43096]

Surely it doesn't work like that without some sort of "permission"?. Imagine if an open operator or Irish Railways decided to poach some Northern 195s by offering a better deal to the ROSCO?

It is down to what is contracted to who and until when. DfT have to sign off on anything for a franchised operator, and presumably have done so for EMR’s fleet strategy as they accepted the bid.

 

[Failed Unit]

Surely it doesn't work like that without some sort of "permission"?. Imagine if an open operator or Irish Railways decided to poach some Northern 195s by offering a better deal to the ROSCO?

Isn’t that the rules of a free market? Surely if someone offers the ROSCO a better deal then tough luck on the previous operator.

If you look at the EMU market the TOCs have left the Rosco with lots of good EMUs (379s as an example) the DMUs have a shortage for now but it is hard to blame the Rosco for taking a better deal. The government kept them at arms length so little they can do.

 

[Jozhua]

Agreed, from videos like
(2m36 timestamp as Railforums don't support them)

you'd have no idea they weren't EMUs.

Wow, those 755's are really nice units! Really shows what you can do in 2019.

I think the 170's will represent a decent upgrade, but something like that would be an absolutely huge step up on some of the regional routes!

Although if EMR do the same quality of refurb to the 170's as EMT did for their 158's, then I really think they could feel absolutely fantastic.

 

[Mikey C]

Isn’t that the rules of a free market? Surely if someone offers the ROSCO a better deal then tough luck on the previous operator.

If you look at the EMU market the TOCs have left the Rosco with lots of good EMUs (379s as an example) the DMUs have a shortage for now but it is hard to blame the Rosco for taking a better deal. The government kept them at arms length so little they can do.

But is isn't a free market as operators are running franchises with strict controls on what types can be operated. A potential franchisee surely wouldn't get agreement to take stock from elsewhere in the country unless the DfT allowed them, which presumably would be because they agreed the stock could be released?

 

[Failed Unit]

But is isn't a free market as operators are running franchises with strict controls on what types can be operated. A potential franchisee surely wouldn't get agreement to take stock from elsewhere in the country unless the DfT allowed them, which presumably would be because they agreed the stock could be released?

As far as I am aware the Rosco’s can as they are not controlled by the government in anyway. If doing so and biting the hand that feeds them result in regulation is a different matter. Really that’s what happened when EMT set up. They lost the centre card of their 158s and could do nothing about it.

 

[222001]

Whatever happens on the regional side, this has to be done by December 2021, not December 2022 as many are quoting.

Abellio quoted as saying "Regional fleet fully replaced by modern diesel trains by December 2021".

 

[hwl]

Whatever happens on the regional side, this has to be done by December 2021, not December 2022 as many are quoting.

Abellio quoted as saying "Regional fleet fully replaced by modern diesel trains by December 2021".

Which is before the lease expiry of the 171s at Southern potentially making things harder...
The poison pill at southern is that any substitute stock be expiry has to be newer, better featured /specified and achieve higher passenger satisfaction - good luck on all those fronts!

 

[edwin_m]

There will be a contract between the TOC (or DfT or Transport Scotland) and the ROSCO to use the trains for a certain period, normally the franchise term. As long as the TOC keeps paying the rentals and complying with the other conditions, the ROSCO can't just transfer the trains to someone who makes a better offer, or they will be in court. They can of course accept a better offer to commence sometime after the end of the current contract.

 

[ABB125]

Today's Railways UK says that all 9 Eversholt-owned class 170s ( including those converted to class 171s) will head for EMR, as will all those currently operated by WMR and, interestingly, most of the 3-car former Greater Anglia units once TfW's new trains have arrived.

 

[hooverboy]

Today's Railways UK says that all 9 Eversholt-owned class 170s ( including those converted to class 171s) will head for EMR, as will all those currently operated by WMR and, interestingly, most of the 3-car former Greater Anglia units once TfW's new trains have arrived.
View attachment 68238

ok.
I like 170's, they're pretty comfortable

however 99 vehicles versus 101 existing (and actually quite a few less sets-and seats) is still a very ambitious target to meet.
they might end up keeping those temporary 156's at this rate to cover existing 153 diagrams permanently(158's would be better!)
that would give you about 50-55 sets(130 vehicles) in total,which is what's really needed.

don't get me wrong, i'll take a 156 over a 153 any day(still a huge upgrade), but it's not exactly what the marketing spiel says now is it.....upgraded,aircon usb's wifi etc etc.

 

[43096]

ok.
I like 170's, they're pretty comfortable

however 99 vehicles versus 101 existing (and actually quite a few less sets-and seats) is still a very ambitious target to meet.
they might end up keeping those temporary 156's at this rate to cover existing 153 diagrams permanently(158's would be better!)
that would give you about 50-55 sets(130 vehicles) in total,which is what's really needed.

don't get me wrong, i'll take a 156 over a 153 any day(still a huge upgrade), but it's not exactly what the marketing spiel says now is it.....upgraded,aircon usb's wifi etc etc.

You cannot compare like with like against the current fleet, as the plan is that the Liverpool-Nottingham section will transfer out.

The current fleet is 15 x 156, 26 x 158 and 17 x 153 (plus four extra 153s as PRM cover), which is 58 sets/99 vehicles. The Liverpool-Nottingham service needs 6 pairs of sets, plus maintenance spares, so about 13/14 sets. That gives a like-for-like comparison of 45 sets/73 vehicles. So upping to 99 vehicles is a pretty decent upgrade.

 

[cnjb8]

Today's Railways UK says that all 9 Eversholt-owned class 170s ( including those converted to class 171s) will head for EMR, as will all those currently operated by WMR and, interestingly, most of the 3-car former Greater Anglia units once TfW's new trains have arrived.
View attachment 68238

I thought TfW were keeping their 170s.

 

[ABB125]

I thought TfW were keeping their 170s.

So did I, but perhaps it's part of a plan.
TfW wants to run an hourly Swansea to Bristol service (I think), and this will require more trains. TfW could retain most of the 3-car class 175s to replace the 3-car class 170s and operate the new service. This frees up the class 170s for EMR.

 

[cnjb8]

So did I, but perhaps it's part of a plan.
TfW wants to run an hourly Swansea to Bristol service (I think), and this will require more trains. TfW could retain most of the 3-car class 175s to replace the 3-car class 170s and operate the new service. This frees up the class 170s for EMR.

I don't know if their too keen on the 175s.

 

[ABB125]

I don't know if their too keen on the 175s.

Maybe, I don't know really, it was just a suggestion.

 

[OTRail]

As far as I know, only the GA units. The 360/2s don't seem to have a future user at the moment.

Thank you - seems a shame the /2s don’t have a planned operator yet. Maybe they could go to EMR in the future depending on service frequencies for Electrics?

 

[OTRail]

Maybe, I don't know really, it was just a suggestion.

I read in RAIL that TfW might keep the 175s for the Swansea to Bristol service, but then again RAIL does have it’s reputation.

It does make sense though if the 3 car 170s will move to EMR. Personally I think it works out - minus their technical faults the 175s provide a better ride than the 170s for long distance services.

 

[Along the bay]

I read in RAIL that TfW might keep the 175s for the Swansea to Bristol service, but then again RAIL does have it’s reputation.

It does make sense though if the 3 car 170s will move to EMR. Personally I think it works out - minus their technical faults the 175s provide a better ride than the 170s for long distance services.

It would be a pain to get them to and from Chester for servicing if their in south Wales.

 

[OTRail]

It would be a pain to get them to and from Chester for servicing if their in south Wales.

They already operate to South Wales from Holyhead/Manchester to Cardiff/Carmarthen/Milford Haven so they’re pretty familiar on the South Wales Main Line. Driver training, route learning etc. won’t be as much of an issue compared to the 170s.

I think they sometimes visit Canton as well for light maintenance.

 

[Cardiff123]

The rolling stock 'fleet composition' document on the TfW website states that TfW expect the ex-GA 170s to stay until the end of the current TfW franchise, with lease end dates with TfW of 16/10/2033.
https://tfw.gov.wales/projects/wales-and-borders-rail-service, click on 'documents', scroll down to 'Rolling stock tables', Appendix 1 - Composition of trains, and click on the 'fleet compsition' document.

I'd be interested to know where Today's Railways UK magazine have got their information from that TfW will be letting their 3-car 170s go after just 18 months in service in Wales

 

[krus_aragon]

I'd be interested to know where Today's Railways UK magazine have got their information from that TfW will be letting their 3-car 170s go after just 18 months in service in Wales

Agreed, but from the TfW perspective they only need the 170s to deal with the Pacer withdrawal, and have then decided to withdraw the 175s and keep the 170s when their new-build stock arrives. If these reports in the press are true, it'd just be a case of keeping the other fleet instead.

What I'm unsure of is how well EMR and TfW's timescales work together. If EMR really want the 170s before TfW's new stock arrives, they could sub-lease them some 158s...

 

[LOL The Irony]

I read in RAIL that TfW might keep the 175s for the Swansea to Bristol service, but then again RAIL does have it’s reputation.

By the time that happens, they'll have to go to Longsight for maintance as Chester is becoming CAF. So it's a non-starter.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss the new trains for the East Midlands franchise.

Please create a new thread in an appropriate section (or use an existing thread, if there is one) if you wish to discuss anything else.

Also please ensure that any speculative ideas are posted in the Speculative Ideas section.

Thanks