New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[londonmidland]

Stolen from Facebook but 43302 has already received its EMR sticker. Interesting times ahead...

 

[greatvoyager]

Stolen from Facebook but 43302 has already received its EMR sticker. Interesting times ahead...

View attachment 70956

That actually looks great. I think the EMR letters look better on red than blue.

 

[greatvoyager]

Does anyone know the identities of the other power cars are transferring to EMR?

 

[duffield]

Nottingham station is going to look very colourful with all these different liveries!

 

[yorksrob]

I was hoping that the transfer of LNER HST's to EMT was to tide us over until the new trains arrived, however I see from December's Modern Railways that the lunatic plan has merely been pushed back to December 2020.

I shall be giving the line a very wide berth between then and 2022.

 

[cactustwirly]

I was hoping that the transfer of LNER HST's to EMT was to tide us over until the new trains arrived, however I see from December's Modern Railways that the lunatic plan has merely been pushed back to December 2020.

I shall be giving the line a very wide berth between then and 2022.

Care to ellaborate? I thought the plan was to keep the LNER HSTs until the 804s arrive, with the 180s replacing the exGC HSTs

 

[yorksrob]

Care to ellaborate? I thought the plan was to keep the LNER HSTs until the 804s arrive, with the 180s replacing the exGC HSTs

Certainly.

According to MR:

"The arrival of the '180s' and the start of electric services between Corby and London operated by 360's from December 2020 is set to allow EMR to withdraw HST's by that point, with it's Inter-city services solely in the hands of the 180's and its class 222 Meridians."

Good luck Midlands passengers.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but according to Rail Magazine the 170/6 units moving to EMR will lose their centre cars, which will move to XC.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/east-midlands-railway-plans-spring-2020-start-for-class-170s

Finally some light at the end of the tunnel! I'm guessing that the seating layout will be changed to the current XC Coach B on 170's rather than a full refurbishment til the next XC franchise is announced.

Assuming yes as regards the seating layout, that means 480 more seats added (6 x 80).

Mind you though as Coach B is unreserved, I think XC's main priority is to get the extra coaches into service.

 

[greatvoyager]

Finally some light at the end of the tunnel! I'm guessing that the seating layout will be changed to the current XC Coach B on 170's rather than a full refurbishment til the next XC franchise is announced.

Assuming yes as regards the seating layout, that means 480 more seats added (6 x 80).

Mind you though as Coach B is unreserved, I think XC's main priority is to get the extra coaches into service.

I think it's good to see more XC capacity, as it is much needed, but I cant help but think EMR passengers won't be happy.
It happened previously on East Midlands Trains when 8 158s lost centre coaches to Northern. I hope there will be enough capacity.
Then again, if Nottingham to Liverpool is being transferred, maybe it wo t be such a big problem.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Certainly.

According to MR:

"The arrival of the '180s' and the start of electric services between Corby and London operated by 360's from December 2020 is set to allow EMR to withdraw HST's by that point, with it's Inter-city services solely in the hands of the 180's and its class 222 Meridians."

Good luck Midlands passengers.

Yes the intention appears to be to run the full timetable with 31 trains totalling 163 vehicles, the 804 order is for 33 trains and 165 vehicles*.

If the 180 reliability does not improve during 2020, or the 222 declines, then things will definitely get interesting, and plenty of scope for speculation about what will happen in that scenario.

*Edit: and of course the 804 fleet will be homogenous 5-car trains, whereas the interim fleet currently has 7-car 222s that have to run around alone, and I'm guessing 180s and 222s cannot work in multiple? That's much less flexible

 

[cactustwirly]

Finally some light at the end of the tunnel! I'm guessing that the seating layout will be changed to the current XC Coach B on 170's rather than a full refurbishment til the next XC franchise is announced.

Assuming yes as regards the seating layout, that means 480 more seats added (6 x 80).

Mind you though as Coach B is unreserved, I think XC's main priority is to get the extra coaches into service.

But it's like robbing Peter to pay Paul, this results in EMR having a decrease in seating capacity

 

[greatvoyager]

Yes the intention appears to be to run the full timetable with 31 trains totalling 163 vehicles, the 804 order is for 33 trains and 165 vehicles*.

If the 180 reliability does not improve during 2020, or the 222 declines, then things will definitely get interesting, and plenty of scope for speculation about what will happen in that scenario.

*Edit: and of course the 804 fleet will be homogenous 5-car trains, whereas the interim fleet currently has 7-car 222s that have to run around alone, and I'm guessing 180s and 222s cannot work in multiple? That's much less flexible

Correct 180s and 222s have different couplers and performance. Also the 222 is a DEMU so has different controls and driving technique.

 

[greatvoyager]

But it's like robbing Peter to pay Paul, this results in EMR having a decrease in seating capacity

Will the loss of the Nottingham to Liverpool service ease the problem?

 

[Raul_Duke]

Also the 222 is a DEMU so has different controls and driving technique.

Are you 100% sure about that one?

 

[Domh245]

Will the loss of the Nottingham to Liverpool service ease the problem?

Seeing as the Liverpool-Nottingham service uses 158s (or 156s) rather than IC stock, no.

 

[greatvoyager]

Are you 100% sure about that one?

Yep, one of my friends worked for Hull Trains.

 

[greatvoyager]

Seeing as the Liverpool-Nottingham service uses 158s (or 156s) rather than IC stock, no.

But as 170s are replacing those trains, will the loss of the centre carriage cause a problem?

 

[Raul_Duke]

Yep, one of my friends worked for Hull Trains.

As a driver? Because I’d love to hear what these control differences are.....

 

[greatvoyager]

As a driver? Because I’d love to hear what these control differences are.....

To be fair he didn't go into detail, he just told me they were different when I asked out of curiosity. He did tell me that the performance of the 222 was superior though.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes the intention appears to be to run the full timetable with 31 trains totalling 163 vehicles, the 804 order is for 33 trains and 165 vehicles*.

If the 180 reliability does not improve during 2020, or the 222 declines, then things will definitely get interesting, and plenty of scope for speculation about what will happen in that scenario.

*Edit: and of course the 804 fleet will be homogenous 5-car trains, whereas the interim fleet currently has 7-car 222s that have to run around alone, and I'm guessing 180s and 222s cannot work in multiple? That's much less flexible

Well. I can't see it working, frankly.

 

[edwin_m]

As discussed in the other thread, the December 2020 timetable takes all the stops south of Kettering out of the Sheffield and Nottingham trains, and this will run with the 222s and 180s until the new units arrive. The electrics will take all the Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton passengers who are currently a large part of the load of those trains that stop there. I guess they reckon they can remove some of the peak hour extras that currently sit in Cricklewood all day, so doing that once for each peak hour saves one diagram. They will probably also run some of the current 10-car and 7-car workings as shorter formations.

 

[Raul_Duke]

To be fair he didn't go into detail, he just told me they were different when I asked out of curiosity. He did tell me that the performance of the 222 was superior though.

A few buttons are in different places. The AWS cancellation and Emergency Brake override are big ones. Same PBC though.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

As discussed in the other thread, the December 2020 timetable takes all the stops south of Kettering out of the Sheffield and Nottingham trains, and this will run with the 222s and 180s until the new units arrive. The electrics will take all the Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton passengers who are currently a large part of the load of those trains that stop there. I guess they reckon they can remove some of the peak hour extras that currently sit in Cricklewood all day, so doing that once for each peak hour saves one diagram. They will probably also run some of the current 10-car and 7-car workings as shorter formations.

So we’re potentially going to get stuck with shorter trains? I don’t understand how that’s acceptable?

 

[43096]

So we’re potentially going to get stuck with shorter trains? I don’t understand how that’s acceptable?

The fleet goes from 233 vehicles currently to 247 next year and then 249 when the new Hitachi sets arrive.

Currently it's:
HST 9 x 8-car = 72
HST 3 x 6-car = 18
222 6 x 7-car = 42
222 17 x 5-car = 85
222 4 x 4-car = 16
Total = 233

From December next year it is:
180 4 x 5-car = 20
222 6 x 7-car = 42
222 17 x 5-car = 85
222 4 x 4-car = 16
360 21 x 4-car = 84
Total = 247

From 2023 it is:
360 21 x 4-car = 84
804 33 x 5-car = 165
Total = 249

I'm not understanding what all the flapping is about.

 

[edwin_m]

So we’re potentially going to get stuck with shorter trains? I don’t understand how that’s acceptable?

The idea is that when the electrics come into service they will take some of the passengers from stations south of Kettering who currently use the diesel services, so there should be fewer passengers wanting to use those diesel services and this may allow some of them to be shortened or removed completely. So while there will be fewer seats on diesel service, there will be more seats in total south of Kettering. Without a detailed analysis of passenger numbers and the future timetable it's not possible to say whether that will be acceptable or not.

 

[Kettledrum]

The fleet goes from 233 vehicles currently to 247 next year and then 249 when the new Hitachi sets arrive.

Currently it's:
HST 9 x 8-car = 72
HST 3 x 6-car = 18
222 6 x 7-car = 42
222 17 x 5-car = 85
222 4 x 4-car = 16
Total = 233

From December next year it is:
180 4 x 5-car = 20
222 6 x 7-car = 42
222 17 x 5-car = 85
222 4 x 4-car = 16
360 21 x 4-car = 84
Total = 247

From 2023 it is:
360 21 x 4-car = 84
804 33 x 5-car = 165
Total = 249

I'm not understanding what all the flapping is about.

Because at the moment, stations north of Market Harborough are served by well over 200 of those vehicles/coaches.

From December next year, this will shrink to 247-84 which is 163 vehicles
From 2023, this will be 165 vehicles

and some of these services between Leicester and Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield are already very busy

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a driver? Because I’d love to hear what these control differences are.....

The only DMU I've driven is a classic one with semi-automatic mechanical transmission, and that only once. But isn't it the case that you can whack it all in with a modern DEMU and the various bits of tech will sort it out, while with a hydraulic unit you don't take full power straight away? It certainly appears so?

 

[yorksrob]

As discussed in the other thread, the December 2020 timetable takes all the stops south of Kettering out of the Sheffield and Nottingham trains, and this will run with the 222s and 180s until the new units arrive. The electrics will take all the Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton passengers who are currently a large part of the load of those trains that stop there. I guess they reckon they can remove some of the peak hour extras that currently sit in Cricklewood all day, so doing that once for each peak hour saves one diagram. They will probably also run some of the current 10-car and 7-car workings as shorter formations.

Well that's the point. Short forms and (knowing the reliability of the 180's) cancellations.

Everything passengers don't need.

 

[greatvoyager]

A few buttons are in different places. The AWS cancellation and Emergency Brake override are big ones. Same PBC though.

Okay thank you for clearing that up.

 

[greatvoyager]

As discussed in the other thread, the December 2020 timetable takes all the stops south of Kettering out of the Sheffield and Nottingham trains, and this will run with the 222s and 180s until the new units arrive. The electrics will take all the Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton passengers who are currently a large part of the load of those trains that stop there. I guess they reckon they can remove some of the peak hour extras that currently sit in Cricklewood all day, so doing that once for each peak hour saves one diagram. They will probably also run some of the current 10-car and 7-car workings as shorter formations.

So they hope that using the electric units on stopping services will mean diesel units with less stops won't need much capacity?
I think that's a bit risky.