New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[cnjb8]

But have WMR and EMR confirmed that though?

EMR gave us that photo of the train types that will be used. One can only assume they will be using 170s and WMR 170s are going off lease

 

[Jozhua]

Liverpoop-Norwich = 12 units

Liverpoop is my favourite city!

Between people trying their best to come up with something that will no doubt be revealed in the fullness of time with no possible way of knowing if they're right or not, apparently there's a big management meeting towards the end of September with plans being disseminated downwards after that.

In the meantime the unions have been advised class 170s will begin to start arriving at a date to be confirmed but May or before most likely and class 156s by December from Greater Anglia with crew training etc needing to be planned.

Yeah, I agree, lots of people constantly saying there isn't enough units, etc.

Reminds me of when people were constantly saying that Hitachi wouldn't be able to replace the 222's due to timing and acceleration, then we found out they were modifying the AT300 design.

 

[ABB125]

I had a quick flick through RAIL in a shop yesterday, and it said that someone from EMR had told them that class 170s would be arriving from ScotRail and WMT, plus the class 171s from Southern once replacement stock could be sourced. Whilst I am aware of the reputation that RAIL has, I think that is likely to be what happens.
But the easiest thing to do is wait for the official announcement (which will hopefully be soon).

 

[Failed Unit]

Will crew familiarisation be needed on the 156s? They were the ex-ct batch just like EMTs own. Did they get some extra mods during the time in Anglia?

 

[Failed Unit]

Liverpoop is my favourite city!



Yeah, I agree, lots of people constantly saying there isn't enough units, etc.

Reminds me of when people were constantly saying that Hitachi wouldn't be able to replace the 222's due to timing and acceleration, then we found out they were modifying the AT300 design.

I can understand why people such as myself are wondering if they have enough trains come December. 9 trains replacing 21 doesn’t work.

Yes I know some of the 153 run around in pairs all day and others are coupled to a 156 most of the day as I stated in an earlier post but the vast majority are solo. So 9 trains doesn’t replace 21. However another poster has shown it probably will work but be tight until the first of the 170s arrive.

 

[OTRail]

I had a quick flick through RAIL in a shop yesterday, and it said that someone from EMR had told them that class 170s would be arriving from ScotRail and WMT, plus the class 171s from Southern once replacement stock could be sourced. Whilst I am aware of the reputation that RAIL has, I think that is likely to be what happens.
But the easiest thing to do is wait for the official announcement (which will hopefully be soon).

I can understand why the 171s will possibly transfer but won’t that cause issues for both Southern and EMR? Southern in the sense that finding a suitable replacement for the 171s will be difficult - whilst they could obtain 769s (which they technically used to operate as 319s), the conversion has been shown to be problematic for Porterbrook, with the first unit not even beginning mainline testing yet.

Also on EMR’s side, they won’t have a uniform regional fleet in a way as the 171s are fitted with dellner couplers as opposed to the BSI couplers on the 170s, meaning more money would be spent on making both fleets compatible with each other.

 

[ABB125]

I can understand why the 171s will possibly transfer but won’t that cause issues for both Southern and EMR? Southern in the sense that finding a suitable replacement for the 171s will be difficult - whilst they could obtain 769s (which they technically used to operate as 319s), the conversion has been shown to be problematic for Porterbrook, with the first unit not even beginning mainline testing yet.

Also on EMR’s side, they won’t have a uniform regional fleet in a way as the 171s are fitted with dellner couplers as opposed to the BSI couplers on the 170s, meaning more money would be spent on making both fleets compatible with each other.

It should be possible to change the couplers (although, having said that, this is the railway industry, so perhaps not!). The main challenge will be replacing them on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines. Personally, I think the solution is 3rd rail electrification, but that's extremely unlikely (unfortunately).

 

[OTRail]

It should be possible to change the couplers (although, having said that, this is the railway industry, so perhaps not!). The main challenge will be replacing them on the Uckfield and Marshlink lines. Personally, I think the solution is 3rd rail electrification, but that's extremely unlikely (unfortunately).

Yeah I highly doubt electrification will happen, which honestly would be the main reason why Southern would release their 171s for EMR. Although it could be a TPE Chiltern situation again in 2021 but who knows.

Most of Southern’s 171s used to be 170s when they were built, but were converted to dellner 171s to couple up to their 377s in emergencies. Whether EMR would be willing to convert them back to BSI 170s or convert their incoming 170s to 171s I’m not sure - guess it depends on them moving or not!

 

[Nym]

But their man has explicitly said in a video posted earlier there will only be one type of regional rolling stock...

Please don't let me have to do my lecture again as to what he actually said in them videos. And how fleet does not mean homogeneous fleet.

 

[The Ham]

I can understand why people such as myself are wondering if they have enough trains come December. 9 trains replacing 21 doesn’t work.

Yes I know some of the 153 run around in pairs all day and others are coupled to a 156 most of the day as I stated in an earlier post but the vast majority are solo. So 9 trains doesn’t replace 21. However another poster has shown it probably will work but be tight until the first of the 170s arrive.

Wasn't it also stated that they were able to carry on using the 153's as long as they were part of a train which had a 156 as part of its configuration?

In which case they only need enough 156's to run the services which are currently only formed of 153's.

 

[swt_passenger]

Please don't let me have to do my lecture again as to what he actually said in them videos. And how fleet does not mean homogeneous fleet.

Well I did wonder about the video at a certain level of detail, hence posting at the time about the exact meaning of “brand new” - post #1700.

 

[The Ham]

Yeah I highly doubt electrification will happen, which honestly would be the main reason why Southern would release their 171s for EMR. Although it could be a TPE Chiltern situation again in 2021 but who knows.

Most of Southern’s 171s used to be 170s when they were built, but were converted to dellner 171s to couple up to their 377s in emergencies. Whether EMR would be willing to convert them back to BSI 170s or convert their incoming 170s to 171s I’m not sure - guess it depends on them moving or not!

Based on doing a unit swap 158/171 there'd be 4 coaches short (52 coaches in the EMR 158 fleet compared with 56 coaches in the Southern 171 fleet).

As such it's going to be close with a small increase in coaches for EMR and a small decrease in coaches for Southern.

However based on the seating capacity the 171's have a maximum of 589 seats in a 10 coach train whilst the 158's would give you 645 (based on 129 seats per unit)

 

[Doomotron]

I can understand why the 171s will possibly transfer but won’t that cause issues for both Southern and EMR? Southern in the sense that finding a suitable replacement for the 171s will be difficult - whilst they could obtain 769s (which they technically used to operate as 319s), the conversion has been shown to be problematic for Porterbrook, with the first unit not even beginning mainline testing yet.

Also on EMR’s side, they won’t have a uniform regional fleet in a way as the 171s are fitted with dellner couplers as opposed to the BSI couplers on the 170s, meaning more money would be spent on making both fleets compatible with each other.

There's more problems. The 170s as built pretty much didn't have a TMS (this allowed them to easily work with BR designs). Southern's, however, have got one, which caused the huge problems making the ScotRail 170s work with them. If the 171s were to move to EMR (which I heavily doubt), they'd have to do a lot more than change the couplers.

Of course, Southern haven't shown any intent to get rid of their Turbostars.

Based on doing a unit swap 158/171 there'd be 4 coaches short (52 coaches in the EMR 158 fleet compared with 56 coaches in the Southern 171 fleet).

As such it's going to be close with a small increase in coaches for EMR and a small decrease in coaches for Southern.

However based on the seating capacity the 171's have a maximum of 589 seats in a 10 coach train whilst the 158's would give you

However, I wouldn't at all mind 158s as replacements.

 

[OTRail]

Based on doing a unit swap 158/171 there'd be 4 coaches short (52 coaches in the EMR 158 fleet compared with 56 coaches in the Southern 171 fleet).

As such it's going to be close with a small increase in coaches for EMR and a small decrease in coaches for Southern.

However based on the seating capacity the 171's have a maximum of 589 seats in a 10 coach train whilst the 158's would give you 645 (based on 129 seats per unit)

That is true, but let’s not forget that it’s not a like for like replacement. The 158s (apart from ex SWT 889) don’t have first class interiors and are also 2 carriages each as opposed to a mainly 4 car consist for the 171s, meaning a lot of units will need to be freed up for 10 car formations.

Personally I can see the 158s ending up at Northern to replace older sprinter units and supplement connect services.

 

[OTRail]

There's more problems. The 170s as built pretty much didn't have a TMS (this allowed them to easily work with BR designs). Southern's, however, have got one, which caused the huge problems making the ScotRail 170s work with them. If the 171s were to move to EMR (which I heavily doubt), they'd have to do a lot more than change the couplers.

Of course, Southern haven't shown any intent to get rid of their Turbostars.

Yeah when I read about it in RAIL I thought it was a bit far fetched - maybe EMR plan to lease them when their lease expires in a few years but personally I don’t think it’s going to happen... unless they pull a Chiltern Railways :/

Maybe they could come to a further arrangement with Scotrail? I know they were originally meant to return more 170s but negotiated for a further 13 units to stay.

 

[RealTrains07]

I had a quick flick through RAIL in a shop yesterday, and it said that someone from EMR had told them that class 170s would be arriving from ScotRail and WMT, plus the class 171s from Southern once replacement stock could be sourced. Whilst I am aware of the reputation that RAIL has, I think that is likely to be what happens.
But the easiest thing to do is wait for the official announcement (which will hopefully be soon).

Who from EMR told them that information though cause depending what their role is in EMR depends on how accurate their information is

 

[swt_passenger]

Who from EMR told them that information though cause depending what their role is in EMR depends on how accurate their information is

The “interim MD” was quoted, according to the relevant post a few days ago. I’d assume he has a bit of an idea?

 

[Jozhua]

Maybe they'll hook 153's to the back of the 170's

Pacers will probably be a more reliable substitute for the 180's on the IC routes...

 

[RealTrains07]

The “interim MD” was quoted, according to the relevant post a few days ago. I’d assume he has a bit of an idea?

But not all staff give accurate information as known on twitter

 

[hooverboy]

Will crew familiarisation be needed on the 156s? They were the ex-ct batch just like EMTs own. Did they get some extra mods during the time in Anglia?

GA got WSP fitted.

I'm not sure about the EMR ones.

 

[LowLevel]

GA got WSP fitted.

I'm not sure about the EMR ones.

With the exception of 156470/473/497/498 the whole EMR fleet of 15x is WSP fitted.

I believe bar some detail differences like luggage racks and some bits in the cab that aren't really critical the EMR and GA 156 fleets are still as close to the same spec as you'll get.

 

[43074]

But not all staff give accurate information as known on twitter

I highly doubt the interim Managing Director would lie, knowingly or not, about such a matter...

The Southern 171s will be part of the EMR fleet by the end of 2022, regardless of what the TOC may or may not have said, as they have very little say in the matter anyway. It is a matter for Porterbrook/Eversholt as they are ultimately their assets, from their point of view it doesn't matter where they run as long as they generate revenue (i.e. a TOC is leasing them), and if they can guarantee use for several years beyond the end of the current GTR franchise then it is a win-win for the ROSCOs.

 

[JonathanH]

The Southern 171s will be part of the EMR fleet by the end of 2022, regardless of what the TOC may or may not have said, as they have very little say in the matter anyway.

That's a very bold assertion - presumably if something can't be sourced to replace them at Southern, they will be subleased back.

 

[RealTrains07]

I highly doubt the interim Managing Director would lie, knowingly or not, about such a matter...

Wasn’t referring to EMR managers or anyone in a similar position

Actually referred to the inaccuracies of the twitter staff and staff at a similar position to them not in the management

Either way things that management say can change

 

[Fincra5]

I highly doubt the interim Managing Director would lie, knowingly or not, about such a matter...

The Southern 171s will be part of the EMR fleet by the end of 2022, regardless of what the TOC may or may not have said, as they have very little say in the matter anyway. It is a matter for Porterbrook/Eversholt as they are ultimately their assets, from their point of view it doesn't matter where they run as long as they generate revenue (i.e. a TOC is leasing them), and if they can guarantee use for several years beyond the end of the current GTR franchise then it is a win-win for the ROSCOs.

Brave call. Until something is announced for a SN 171 replacement, I'd say its unlikely.

 

[cnjb8]

Should we be expecting an announcement soon?

 

[RealTrains07]

Should we be expecting an announcement soon?

Doubt it

More likely EMR will officially announce the 170s transferring from WMR

 

[JonathanH]

Brave call. Until something is announced for a SN 171 replacement, I'd say its unlikely.

Buses south of Hurst Green to Uckfield and through Uckfield trains switched to East Grinstead?

 

[Pumbaa]

Brave call. Until something is announced for a SN 171 replacement, I'd say its unlikely.

You can say it all you like. That’s the plan though!

 

[whhistle]

Please don't let me have to do my lecture again as to what he actually said in them videos. And how fleet does not mean homogeneous fleet.

But in this case, it does.

Seriously, accept the aims / plans for the East Midlands franchise is to have just three types of train: 80x, 360s, 170s. That's it. Three types of stock, one for each area of the business.

If you are still unbelieving, email EMR and find out yourself.




Still surprised at the supposed procurement of 171s.
The 2-coach units have less seats than a 2-coach train they'd replace (presumably they'd swap 2-coach services for 2-coach services, apart from the 153 single units).