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New trains for the DLR?

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Apparently so, but quite how many residents of South Barking desire a direct connection to South Tottenham I'm not sure.:lol: Can't help feeling BR is merely a staging post to somewhere further south, perhaps even to the civilised side of the Thames. Latter remark tongue-in-cheek, by the way. I'm not Thamesmead's greatest lover.
The aspiration is to extend it to Abbey Wood.
 
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jopsuk

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the Thamesmead & Abbey Wood extension is definitely an official TfL aspiration, albeit unfunded. The alignment for the Barking riverside extension will be done such that the tunnel can be added with minimal disruption- presumably land will be safeguarded for the portals etc. It would be the fourteenth (I think?) railway under the Thames in London*


*Thirteen existing:
DLR x 2
Jubilee x 4
Overground (Original Thames Tunnel)
Crossrail
Northern x 2 (not counting the old tunnels into King William Street)
Bakerloo
Waterloo & City
Victoria

There's also HS1 to the east
 

Busaholic

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The aspiration is to extend it to Abbey Wood.

Aka Thamesmead.

As I understand it, GOBLIN will only be able to handle 4 tph even after electrification, partly because of all the freight traffic, and the trains won't be able to be very long, so if Barking Reach is to produce anything like the number of homes planned it will require something more than this extension, or it will be like the DLR and East London Line post-Overground and severely over-subscribed from day one. Given that DLR is not rammed east of Excel, and even west of Excel only at certain times on this branch, thought should surely be given again to an extension beyond Beckton, retaining a turn-back at the latter until numbers stack up. Should only require a couple more trains initially,assuming only one extra station.
 

transmanche

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One or two stops to Barking then three more to Fenchurch Street, turn up and go service on both legs. Versus about 14 intermediate stops to Tower Gateway?
Or six stops to Custom House and Crossrail...
 

Busaholic

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One or two stops to Barking then three more to Fenchurch Street, turn up and go service on both legs. Versus about 14 intermediate stops to Tower Gateway?

How much capacity is there at Barking in the morning peak on C2C? I'd imagine the District/Met would take most of the traffic, then Tower Hill as against Tower Gateway would not be much different timewise, allowing from getting from BR to Barking and the interchange. Also, how many living here might be working around Canary Wharf, in ancillary positions at least?
 

Mojo

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If anyone is out and about in London this weekend then I would say keep your eyes out for vehicle 111 on the DLR ;)


I've been on 111 this afternoon, and the central section has been converted to have longitudinal seating with handrails between every other seat. The seat design is different too, with what looks like more padding.

The bits at the ends of the cars are still the same as before (two rows of airline seats facing the ends of the cars).


http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/784f996166c8aa822a3fcbdd0f8686a2.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/d2b3738f855b91a45fce84eb12aa6529.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/43a1308edc5a08e77cf144cb8dd84b18.jpg
 

Clip

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Aye its not too bad a conversion isn't it? The the new handrails there are a bit in the way though aren't they?
 

Clip

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No, strangely they are bigger than what is currently in them already and with armrests too.
 

ScotGG

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Or six stops to Custom House and Crossrail...

Few in Thamesmead will do that. The DLR trundle to Custom House would take 20 minutes before changing to a packed Crossrail train. They'll go one stop on the DLR to Abbey Wood then Crossrail with a hope of a seat. Would be quicker too.

However, DLR to Thamesmead then Abbey Wood is a far worse option than London Overground extended over from Barking Riverside. The LO to Barking offers a very large range of transport options - 2 tube lines, LO to NW and N London, c2c to East London and out to various places in Essex. DLR offers very little - Beckton (nothing there or any connections) and then nowt until Custom House & Canning Town, but connecting with those just duplicates existing cross river connections at Woolwich Arsenal & Crossrail from Abbey Wood.

The far greater options LO provides would offer massive regional benefits for outer SE and east London connections, along with better Kent and Essex links, thus people wouldn't have to travel all the way into London. DLR offers no time advantages on what's already there so wouldn't.

The hitch is 4 tph. But could a higher tph service run from Abbey Wood to Beckton alone, with the existing 4tph GOBLIN remaining on its current route, electrified and faster with longer trains? I don't know Beckton too well, but could it be possible for another line/platform to be built specifically for a shuttle from Abbey Wood to Beckton, calling at Thamesmead, Barking Riverside (two stops could be possible at either end of development zone) then terminating at Barking?

Finally, strategic plans see massive housing numbers planned in Thamesmead & Barking Riverside alone, let alone the wider region. A crossing will greatly speed them up helping London's massive housing problem. Thamesmead alone could see 30k extra people but without a decent station IN Thamesmead then forget it.
 
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transmanche

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Or six stops to Custom House and Crossrail...

Few in Thamesmead will do that.
Then it's a good thing nobody suggested that!

(The conversation was about the South Barking development being served by LO or DLR and which was preferable; travel on LO to Barking and change on to c2c for Fenchurch Street, or use the DLR all the way to Tower Gateway.)
 

Mojo

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Apparently four units have now been done and they are going to change them all.
 

hassaanhc

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No, strangely they are bigger than what is currently in them already and with armrests too.

The glass partitions were moved closer to the doors, you can tell that from where the blue doorway flooring starts and finishes.
 
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Clip

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The glass partitions were moved closer to the doors, you can tell that from where the blue doorway flooring starts and finishes.

ahh never really noticed that. Much better seats on them too - firmer.
 

ScotGG

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Then it's a good thing nobody suggested that!

(The conversation was about the South Barking development being served by LO or DLR and which was preferable; travel on LO to Barking and change on to c2c for Fenchurch Street, or use the DLR all the way to Tower Gateway.)

Ah right sorry. Both Barking Riverside & Thamesmead are similar in that DLR would offer far less connections and be slower than a quick London Overground extension direct into Barking. Lucky old Riverside getting it. Bring on the Thamesmead/Abbey Wood extension.

On the subject of the DLR changes - badly needed! The scale of housing development over the next 5 years on the Lewisham, Stratford and Woolwich branches is vast. Less so Beckton but still substantial. Then there the main interchanges at Canning Town. Lots coming there. Seems a good short term fix to help out.
 
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Busaholic

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Ah right sorry. Both Barking Riverside & Thamesmead are similar in that DLR would offer far less connections and be slower than a quick London Overground extension direct into Barking. Lucky old Riverside getting it. Bring on the Thamesmead/Abbey Wood extension.

On the subject of the DLR changes - badly needed! The scale of housing development over the next 5 years on the Lewisham, Stratford and Woolwich branches is vast. Less so Beckton but still substantial. Then there the main interchanges at Canning Town. Lots coming there. Seems a good short term fix to help out.

We can't expect too much more from the DLR imo: it should not be forgotten the LR stands for Light Railway! As with a bike, too many spokes could jam the whole thing up. Unfortunately I can see TfL and the Mayor obsessing about Crossrail 2 now to the detriment of smaller, but badly needed projects, especially in places which are going to see massive housing developments, for which a few extra buses are going to be a totally inadequate solution. Overground must get extended south from Barking and across the Thames, whether on a bridge or underground.
 

edwin_m

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We can't expect too much more from the DLR imo: it should not be forgotten the LR stands for Light Railway! As with a bike, too many spokes could jam the whole thing up.

True in terms of network complexity but not necessarily in terms of technology. Many new "metros" use light rail equipment and given long enough platforms and full segregation from other modes the capacity can approach the maximum for a heavy metro. The metro option for Crossrail 2 was based on DLR technology not a classic heavy metro, but with a train length of about 120m.
 

TheNewNo2

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We can't expect too much more from the DLR imo: it should not be forgotten the LR stands for Light Railway! As with a bike, too many spokes could jam the whole thing up. Unfortunately I can see TfL and the Mayor obsessing about Crossrail 2 now to the detriment of smaller, but badly needed projects, especially in places which are going to see massive housing developments, for which a few extra buses are going to be a totally inadequate solution. Overground must get extended south from Barking and across the Thames, whether on a bridge or underground.

Crossrail 2 is needed for HS2, otherwise Euston will get entirely swamped. Plus it takes pressure off Waterloo.

I can't see a railway bridge going across the Thames downstream of Cannon Street - the height requirement would be pretty heady.
 

Busaholic

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Crossrail 2 is needed for HS2, otherwise Euston will get entirely swamped. Plus it takes pressure off Waterloo.

I can't see a railway bridge going across the Thames downstream of Cannon Street - the height requirement would be pretty heady.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not at all anti-Crossrail2. I just don't want all other, smaller projects to be swamped by it, particularly with Osborne's latest pronouncements meaning it is less likely to be built in the foreseeable future.

I'm sure you are right about a railway bridge, though a new road bridge will almost certainly be built in the area.
 

ScotGG

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We can't expect too much more from the DLR imo: it should not be forgotten the LR stands for Light Railway! As with a bike, too many spokes could jam the whole thing up. Unfortunately I can see TfL and the Mayor obsessing about Crossrail 2 now to the detriment of smaller, but badly needed projects, especially in places which are going to see massive housing developments, for which a few extra buses are going to be a totally inadequate solution. Overground must get extended south from Barking and across the Thames, whether on a bridge or underground.

Indeed - population growth and passenger increases will vastly outstrip provision soon at current rates. I think the numbers are already causing some disquiet to planners who seemingly havn't been paying attention. Woolwich DLR exceeded its targets very quickly and off peak frequencies were doubled to every 5 minutes. That branch is lined with thousands of homes now under construction.

Look at Lewisham as well - they've rushed through some rebuilding work now ongoing to the station by taking over offices and retail units to punch holes in walls for extra doors as its becoming very overcrowded. And this is before thousands more homes complete in the next 2 years. National Rail and DLR have to try and cope.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Realistically can the capacity of the DLR be increased without having to knock down many buildings to build extra tracks or bore new tunnels?
 

edwin_m

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Realistically can the capacity of the DLR be increased without having to knock down many buildings to build extra tracks or bore new tunnels?

I suspect not. Many of the stations are now at the maximum limit so trains can't be lenghened further, and the frequency is probably also at the maximum at places such as Bank.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed - population growth and passenger increases will vastly outstrip provision soon at current rates. I think the numbers are already causing some disquiet to planners who seemingly havn't been paying attention. Woolwich DLR exceeded its targets very quickly and off peak frequencies were doubled to every 5 minutes. That branch is lined with thousands of homes now under construction.

Look at Lewisham as well - they've rushed through some rebuilding work now ongoing to the station by taking over offices and retail units to punch holes in walls for extra doors as its becoming very overcrowded. And this is before thousands more homes complete in the next 2 years. National Rail and DLR have to try and cope.

Crossrail will have a station at Woolwich so will directly relieve the DLR there. It will also relieve Lewisham to some extent by taking some passengers to/from further east.
 

ScotGG

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I suspect not. Many of the stations are now at the maximum limit so trains can't be lenghened further, and the frequency is probably also at the maximum at places such as Bank.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Crossrail will have a station at Woolwich so will directly relieve the DLR there. It will also relieve Lewisham to some extent by taking some passengers to/from further east.

Looking at strategic planning documents and current population and housing growth Crossrail will certainly help, but after 5-10 years we will be back to where we are. Dartford & Greenhithe alone could see 20k extra people in 5 years. Woolwich and Lewisham the same. And that's just imminently.

Any relief from people transferring at Woolwich to Crossrail will also be filled by Royal Docks developments on the stretch between it and Canning Town, which are not a quick walk to Custom House Crossrail. Royal Wharf, for example (Stage 1 just beginning) has 3400 homes & 10k people planned. First residents next year and the whole site complete by 2020.
 
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edwin_m

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Looking at strategic planning documents and current population and housing growth Crossrail will certainly help, but after 5-10 years we will be back to where we are. Dartford & Greenhithe alone could see 20k extra people in 5 years. Woolwich and Lewisham the same. And that's just imminently.

Any relief from people transferring at Woolwich to Crossrail will also be filled by Royal Docks developments on the stretch between it and Canning Town, which are not a quick walk to Custom House Crossrail. Royal Wharf, for example (Stage 1 just beginning) has 3400 homes & 10k people planned. First residents next year and the whole site complete by 2020.

There's probably scope for extra trains on the Woolwich and Lewisham branches themselves - the problem is getting them from the Poplar area to the City. Maybe a Woolwich-Poplar-Lewisham service, encouraging people to change to the Crossrail Canary Wharf station? Crossrail should also result in more space on the Jubilee, allowing changes from DLR at Canning Town.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could the old rolling stock be realistically used anywhere else ?

It is of similar dimensions to the Tyne and Wear Metro units, and pantographs were fitted to the original DLR units for the demonstration in Manchester and when they were later sold on to Germany. Re-configuring the traction package for 1500V might or might not be easy.
 

Busaholic

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I believe somewhere within TfL's transport planning department still exist plans to extend the DLR westward from either Bank or Tower Gateway - either would be absolute madness. I sometimes wonder if these people inhabit the same world as I do, and, if they do, whether they actually use public transport or have ever been to somewhere like Thamesmead or could even point to it on a map, unaided.
 

SpacePhoenix

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I believe somewhere within TfL's transport planning department still exist plans to extend the DLR westward from either Bank or Tower Gateway - either would be absolute madness. I sometimes wonder if these people inhabit the same world as I do, and, if they do, whether they actually use public transport or have ever been to somewhere like Thamesmead or could even point to it on a map, unaided.

http://www.nce.co.uk/features/geotechnical/geotechnical-bank-underground-station/8660630.article

Looking at the picture of the tunnel layout at Bank it looks like it's physically impossible to extend the DLR at Bank and looking at Tower Gateway station on Google Earth I can't see them extending westward from there either as it would either mean demolishing buildings or boring a tunnel and moving Tower Gateway underground
 

Stats

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http://www.nce.co.uk/features/geotechnical/geotechnical-bank-underground-station/8660630.article

Looking at the picture of the tunnel layout at Bank it looks like it's physically impossible to extend the DLR at Bank and looking at Tower Gateway station on Google Earth I can't see them extending westward from there either as it would either mean demolishing buildings or boring a tunnel and moving Tower Gateway underground

This is probably a bit of a mad idea and it will never happen, but I've long envisaged the DLR taking over the C2C lines to segregate Bank and Tower Gateway traffic. That would solve capacity issues between Limehouse and Central London. The issue then is how to connect Poplar to Limehouse, and the only way I can see to solve this is to build a viaduct over West India Dock Rd and Commercial Rd. Of course, Bank is at capacity so additional trains from the Canary Wharf would need to go to Tower, but if you utilised the 4 platforms at Fenchurch St and abandonded TG platform capacity wouldn't be an issue. The extra line capacity would be overkill for just Beckton traffic, but As C2C would be diverted to Liverpool St there would also need to be a new DLR service over C2C from Barking to Fenchurch St.

As I say a mad idea that will never happen.
 

Peter Mugridge

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http://www.nce.co.uk/features/geotechnical/geotechnical-bank-underground-station/8660630.article

Looking at the picture of the tunnel layout at Bank it looks like it's physically impossible to extend the DLR at Bank and looking at Tower Gateway station on Google Earth I can't see them extending westward from there either as it would either mean demolishing buildings or boring a tunnel and moving Tower Gateway underground

I am unable to view the image in question; the link requires a membership and a log in.
 
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