New Transdev Cityzap services registered (and now cancelled)

[pemma]

PC0005249/154 Registered
BURNLEY & PENDLE TRAVEL LTD
Route: MANCHESTER CHORLTON STREET to HUDDERSFIELD AINLEY TOP
Service number: CITY ZAP
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 05 Nov 2017

PC0005249/155 Registered
BURNLEY & PENDLE TRAVEL LTD
Route: Huddersfield, Ainley Top to Leeds Bus Station
Service number: City Zap
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 05 Nov 2017

I imagine this is set to be a through service which is registered as two separate services, leaving the M62 to pick up and set down at Ainley Top. I also imagine this will be the site to look out for the new timetable on: http://www.cityzap.co.uk/

 

[Blindtraveler]

Interesting! Assume the destination in Huds is a P and R site of some kind? This shoukd be good.

 

[pemma]

Interesting! Assume the destination in Huds is a P and R site of some kind? This shoukd be good.

Ainley Top is adjacent to a junction on the M62 a few miles from Huddersfield town centre.

 

[yorksrob]

I guess that Leeds to York must be ticking along nicely then.

 

[96tommy]

I guess that Leeds to York must be ticking along nicely then.

Apparently so though you wouldn't think that if you saw one go by!



Ainley Top seems a sensible location. I wonder if it will be Hazelwood Castle of the new route and not be an official stop but allows bus passes to be used

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Apparently so though you wouldn't think that if you saw one go by!

Clearly CityZap must be doing reasonably well if they're expanding the concept. If they've 250k passengers in 18 months (and the first six months would be slower with a new product), then they shifting an average of getting on for 550-600 a day.

I occasionally visit my better half's relatives in Woodthorpe and so see the odd CityZap. Depends which day/time of day - some are quiet but I've seen some half full vehicles.

Methinks you might be a little partisan......

 

[pemma]

Apparently so though you wouldn't think that if you saw one go by!

Ainley Top seems a sensible location. I wonder if it will be Hazelwood Castle of the new route and not be an official stop but allows bus passes to be used

I don't think a service being an express prevents bus pass use if the operator wants to accept them. Usually the operator doesn't want to accept them if the loadings of fare paying passengers are good.

There are, however, different driver working hour requirements for long distance services. High Peak once printed on their TP timetables that the service being split in to 4 short ones was because of that.

 

[96tommy]

Clearly CityZap must be doing reasonably well if they're expanding the concept. If they've 250k passengers in 18 months (and the first six months would be slower with a new product), then they shifting an average of getting on for 550-600 a day.

I occasionally visit my better half's relatives in Woodthorpe and so see the odd CityZap. Depends which day/time of day - some are quiet but I've seen some half full vehicles.

Methinks you might be a little partisan......

Just stating observations of the many times I see the bus during the day. The buses rarely look to have more than 10 on but obviously, the figures show they are doing well

 

[yorksrob]

Apparently so though you wouldn't think that if you saw one go by!



Ainley Top seems a sensible location. I wonder if it will be Hazelwood Castle of the new route and not be an official stop but allows bus passes to be used

I expect they don't need too many to break even.

York - Leeds strikes me as a corridor where the railway has had things a bit too easy over the past couple of decades !

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Interesting! Assume the destination in Huds is a P and R site of some kind? This should be good.

Funnily enough a park and ride at Ainley Top is planned to be built, when I do not know but at present all there is at Ainley Top is a very large roundabout with a pylon in the middle of it with a hotel chucked on one side of the roundabout and a Toby Cavery on t'other. So where on earth where CityZap2 shall stop I do not know, as the only bus stops there are at the top of the Elland Bypass for the Zest503 between Halifax and Huddersfield.

My only guess is that CityZap2 would leave the M62 and head up to the roundabout then come back on itself but pull into a layby that is nearby. To be honest it would have been better for Transdev to pull off at Junction 24 and head through the village of Rastrick then over the river into the dump that is Brighouse (the town is quite dodgy due to some of the locals behavour and as such its been dubbed as Dodgecity) before heading along Wakefield Road which then takes it back to the M62 at junction 25, this would make a lot more sense than stopping in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Starmill]

Presumably it would also add significantly to the journey time?

The time will be quite slow with a top speed of 60mph, any stops being served at either end and the notorious and frequent serious traffic congestion on the M62 and M621. It seems very unlikely they could get it to below an hour even with these arrangements and a traffic-free route (so, probably only if they are having a service at midnight).

Also can someone explain why the Hazlewood Castle stop on the existing CityZap is significant?

 

[Blindtraveler]

What Im interested to know is will they offer through Manchester York Cityzap tickets?

 

[tbtc]

Good to see some more motorway services in Yorkshire - Stagecoach are introducing a Barnsley - Leeds service soon (after their Barnsley - Meadowhall X65 started in the summer).

The fact that some people will sit on a Pacer on the Calder Valley route to take advantage of cheaper train fares suggests that there's maybe a market for a bus alternative to the fast TPE train from Leeds to Manchester.

can someone explain why the Hazlewood Castle stop on the existing CityZap is significant?

I guess it's a stop designed to allow Transdev to register the service as two "shorter" services (Leeds - Hazlewood, Hazlewood - York), so that they can treat it as a regular bus service (rather than a "coach" service which would require different drivers hours/ breaks), and also is the difference between the service attracting ENCTS revenue or making pensioners pay full fare.

I suppose Ainley Top could be a way of allowing some of suburban Huddersfield fairly fast access to Leeds/ Manchester, but it'll be an awkward slow diversion for the longer distance passengers trying to do an inter-city journey.

 

[Starmill]

That was what I thought, but they don't seem to 'pretend' that the bus is going there and offer 'guaranteed connections' to onward services in the way that others do. Also the end to end route doesn't seem that long.

 

[Stan Drews]

For ANY bus service to be registered with the Traffic Commissioner as a "Local Bus Service" it must have stopping points no more than 15 miles apart (as the crow flies, not actual route miles). Therefore in the case of the York - Leeds Cityzap service, it requires a stopping point between York College and Leeds bus station in order for it to meet the Local Bus Service requirement.
The new Cityzap between Leeds and Manchester has been registered, so it too will have the necessary stopping points to meet the '15 mile' requirement.

The above requirements should not be confused with 'split' registrations, which are done because routes of over 50km in length must be operated under the more onerous (and therefore costly) EU Drivers Hours. Routes of over 50k in length are often split, particularly those that operate more like a traditional bus service - albeit often a limited stop one.

Stagecoach use the split registration system for all its long distance Scottish services and, as far as I know, all it's English ones too. The Transdev Coastliner and Witch Way services also use the split system, so no surprise they have done the same with their new Cityzap route.

 

[johntea]

Pity this doesn't go live until later, my friend is getting married at that Ainley Top hotel in October so this would have been very useful for me just for that reason!

 

[PermitToTravel]

There are, however, different driver working hour requirements for long distance services. High Peak once printed on their TP timetables that the service being split in to 4 short ones was because of that.

I guess that the split at Ainley Top is solely for that purpose, as I don't recall there being very much there!

I'm quite intrigued by the permissibility of this practice so have started a new thread to discuss it at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=154610

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Presumably it would also add significantly to the journey time?

Probably around 15 minutes extra but it would give Brighouse a direct bus to Leeds, which was lost when the X6 was curtailed at Bradford last year.

 

[pemma]

Some information posted by SF07 on Merseyside bus forum

Timing points listed are:
Manchester Chorlton Street (stand EZ)
Manchester Piccadilly Gardens (stand R to Leeds, stand S to Manchester)
Chadderton (Broadway/Middleton Road)
Mount (Lindley Moor Road/Moorlands Road)
Ainley Top (Lindley Moor Road/Cedar Court Hotel towards Manchester and Lindley Moor Road/Warren Farm towards Leeds)
Leeds Corn Exchange (towards Leeds only)
Leeds City bus station (stand 21)

Service will run at following times:

Leeds to Manchester Journey time is 1 hour 15 mins (average):
Weekdays: 0630, 0700, 0815, 0930 and every hour until 1830
Saturdays: 0830 and every hour until 1830
Sundays: 0930 and every hour until 1730

Manchester to Leeds Journey time is 1 hour 20 mins (average).:
Weekdays: 0600, 0700, 0800, 0900, 1015 and every hour until 1815 (plus 0550 and 0620 from Mount to Leeds)
Saturdays: 0815 and every hour until 1815 (plus 0745 from Mount to Leeds)
Sundays: 0915 and every hour until 1715 (plus 0845 from Mount to Leeds)

http://dartslf.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=288&pid=111943#pid111943

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It appears that the CityZap2 will leave the M62 at junction 23 and run on the A643 to Ainley Top where it'll rejoin the M62 going by the above timing points quoted.

 

[SCH117X]

To work the early journeys from Leeds the first eastbound workings start at Mount. There are however evening workings terminating at Leeds rather than Manchester so some heafty dead mileage. Timetable on TfGM
https://my.tfgm.com/#/timetables/?service=UKNational:B_ZAP&mode=BUS&date=2017-11-10

 

[Samuel88]

With the early finish and poor frequency I just don't see people choosing this service over the train or even the coach. Transdev should have put in an evening service at least over the weekend!

 

[Starmill]

I might occasionally have a use for this, but with no service from Leeds after 1830 it seems a bit pointless?

 

[johntea]

It does seem a bit odd - Leeds to Manchester can be done in 50 minutes on Transpenine and return whenever you want pretty much!

 

[96tommy]

Those timings and the frequency are very disappointing. Was hoping to use this in evenings but can't see people choosing it over the train which takes nearly 30 minutes less at much more regular intervals

 

[Andyh82]

Cheaper fares for people who aren't bothered about it taking longer?

This is pretty much the purpose of the entire long distance bus and coach industry

 

[Flying Snail]

It's hard to see where the market for this will be, it is no more frequent and finishes earlier than the current National Express service, is a bit slower and not likely to be using better vehicles either. That only leaves price, can they really get enough by undercutting NX who are likely to cut their fares if they see a drop in passengers?

 

[lejog]

I guess that the split at Ainley Top is solely for that purpose, as I don't recall there being very much there!

I'm quite intrigued by the permissibility of this practice so have started a new thread to discuss it at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=154610

The Lindley Moor Rd/Cedar Court Hotel stop is seen here on Google Streetview, situated in a rather overgrown layby. The Mount stops are a little better, but they too are shelterless stops on a motorway sliproad. I think to use either of these Huddersfield stops, passengers would have to be extremely dedicated, certainly if traveling from the town centre.

 

[robertclark125]

From what folk are saying, it looks like, initially, this is aimed at the leisure market, but if it can have some demand, then it could be expanded.

 

[SCH117X]

The other way to look at this is that Leeds Bus Station to the train station is a quarter of a hour walk plus the time to catch the train. Journey planners typically give around half a hour. So for any one arriving at Leeds Bus Station, subject to timing, the CityZap service could in practice actually be quicker than using the train. There will also be factor that the Daytripper ticket will presumably be available on these so making day journeys to Manchester significantly cheaper for many on existing Transdev routes radiating from Leeds.