New Transdev Cityzap services registered (and now cancelled)

[Baxenden Bank]

What engineering support would you have at this outstation, who would open and lock up, where would drivers sign on at the start of their shift and pay their cash in at the end?

Stagecoach manage with a council car park in Ambleside - no fence, no office, no cash-safe, no maintenance. An arrangement which has existed since the bus station and garage closed, many years ago. Vehicles work to Kendal for maintenance.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Stagecoach manage with a council car park in Ambleside - no fence, no office, no cash-safe, no maintenance. An arrangement which has existed since the bus station and garage closed, many years ago. Vehicles work to Kendal for maintenance.

Stagecoach also manage with a patch of land in the middle of some housing in Henfield, West Sussex to park some of their buses on, this outstation is used to operate the 17 between Horsham and Brighton. Again as with the Ambleside setup, there isn't any sort of office or owt. So if Stagecoach can manage it, then Transdev should be able to too.

 

[Andyh82]

If Transdev choose to have lengthy dead runs rather than basing buses on unattended wasteland then that's their prerogative.

 

[Bwsbro]

It seems that the new Cityzap service will be operated by Single Deck former Mainline branded Wright Eclipse Urban vehicles.

Burnley based FJ58LTX has been re registered as ML05ZAP. This photographed today on flickr in the new Cityzap Service livery promoting the new service

 

[theblackwatch]

It seems that the new Cityzap service will be operated by Single Deck former Mainline branded Wright Eclipse Urban vehicles.

Burnley based FJ58LTX has been re registered as ML05ZAP. This photographed today on flickr in the new Cityzap Service livery promoting the new service

New fleetlist shows the vehicles as being 1867-71 which are now registered ML02ZAP through to ML06ZAP - ML presumably being 'Manchester Leeds'!

 

[96tommy]

With tickets being £1 for the first week then buses should be packed. The real test for Transdev is how those numbers look in a months time. The original Cityzap suffered from lack of passenger numbers which resulted in many evening and all late night Friday and Saturday buses to be cancelled due to lack of passengers so will be interesting to see what happens with this new route

 

[Stan Drews]

With tickets being £1 for the first week then buses should be packed. The real test for Transdev is how those numbers look in a months time. The original Cityzap suffered from lack of passenger numbers which resulted in many evening and all late night Friday and Saturday buses to be cancelled due to lack of passengers so will be interesting to see what happens with this new route

Presumably that's why they have stuck with the main daytime services to begin with this time.

 

[SCH117X]

Could be awkward the first week if they are too popular, its a not a service they can quickly stick a duplicate on.

 

[96tommy]

So today is the first day of Cityzap 2. No excuse really for it not to be busy if it's been advertised right with the £1 fares for a week. Will the numbers still be there in the weeks after will be interesting to see.

 

[Mugby]

They were out in Piccadilly Gardens, Manchester yesterday giving out leaflets and £1 vouchers.

The Zap card vouchers are dated 5th November to 3rd December.

 

[185143]

Had a trip over to the wrong side of the Pennines today with Cityzap.

Missed the 10:15 from Chorlton Street by seconds-looked like it had about 10 people onboard.

The 11:15 to Leeds had 8 onboard (4 were concessionary pass holders)
I've been told that the 12:30 from Leeds had about 10 on it, as did the 13:30.

Currently on the 16:30 from Leeds with 5 passengers onboard. 3 are concessionary pass holders. Two of the pass holders are genuine passengers who had a day out in Leeds, the other 3 of us (so both the fare payers) are bus enthusiasts trying out the service.

There's absolutely no mention of the service whatsoever at Chorlton Street (VERY poor effort TfGM!)

I know it's only day 1, but it's not looking too good...

 

[Bungle965]

In board the 1715 from Manchester and with a quick count when I got on there was 22 including me. The lack of information by TfGM is not great at all, and would hope that it will be sorted soon.
Sam

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've long thought, from observation, that a new bus service takes about 3 years to establish itself and become properly commercial. I hope they are in it long term.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Had a trip over to the wrong side of the Pennines today with Cityzap.

Missed the 10:15 from Chorlton Street by seconds-looked like it had about 10 people onboard.

The 11:15 to Leeds had 8 onboard (4 were concessionary pass holders)
I've been told that the 12:30 from Leeds had about 10 on it, as did the 13:30.

Currently on the 16:30 from Leeds with 5 passengers onboard. 3 are concessionary pass holders. Two of the pass holders are genuine passengers who had a day out in Leeds, the other 3 of us (so both the fare payers) are bus enthusiasts trying out the service.

There's absolutely no mention of the service whatsoever at Chorlton Street (VERY poor effort TfGM!)

I know it's only day 1, but it's not looking too good...

Think you're being rather pessimistic - those are not bad loadings for a first day even with the discount. To put it into context, Stagecoach's SW Falcon had cheap £1 tickets for the first two weeks and the loadings were light - 5 or 6 per journey.

This is from a standing start - people need to be cognisant of the realities of a start up and the idea that vehicles would be full to overflowing (and that if otherwise, that would be a failure) shows very little knowledge of the realities of building up a clientele from scratch.

 

[Andyh82]

There's absolutely no mention of the service whatsoever at Chorlton Street (VERY poor effort TfGM!)

Would you expect TFGM to employ staff to do changes at 6am on a Sunday morning with multiple teams working on days when there are many changes.

If there is still no timetable and number on the bus stop flag by the end of the week then you'd have a point.

 

[radamfi]

The regularity of needing to change information at bus stops is a hidden cost of deregulation. Even so, TfGM/GMPTE have continued to update bus stop flag numbers despite frequent route changes when many authorities gave up after deregulation.

 

[185143]

Would you expect TFGM to employ staff to do changes at 6am on a Sunday morning with multiple teams working on days when there are many changes.

If there is still no timetable and number on the bus stop flag by the end of the week then you'd have a point.

Transdev were 'Frustrated by this'-to quote their Facebook team, and Alex Hornby has been complaining to TfGM on twitter about it.

Metro managed to get the Cityzap service on the bus stop flag at Ainley Top...

 

[radamfi]

Metro managed to get the Cityzap service on the bus stop flag at Ainley Top...

Perhaps they will now put route numbers on the thousands of bus stop flags in West Yorkshire where they are missing and only say "Buses towards".

 

[Ginga]

Think you're being rather pessimistic - those are not bad loadings for a first day even with the discount. To put it into context, Stagecoach's SW Falcon had cheap £1 tickets for the first two weeks and the loadings were light - 5 or 6 per journey.

This is from a standing start - people need to be cognisant of the realities of a start up and the idea that vehicles would be full to overflowing (and that if otherwise, that would be a failure) shows very little knowledge of the realities of building up a clientele from scratch.

From what I've seen on Twitter, a large amount of pax today seem to be "bus spotters". Looking at Mr Hornbys record when he was at Trent Barton, Leicester Xprss did not last long. Zoom which was "award winning " has been cut and a version is now run by the low cost arm Notts and Derby. The Red Arrow Sunday trips to the Peak District also did not last long. Why would anyone apart from a bus spotter want to spend 75 minutes on a bus. With Civic v3 seating, when for £3 plus booking fee you can get a Coach with Air con, usb etc. National Express run what 25 trips per day? And offer multitrips of 10 tickets which are valid for 3 months.

 

[185143]

From what I've seen on Twitter, a large amount of pax today seem to be "bus spotters". Looking at Mr Hornbys record when he was at Trent Barton, Leicester Xprss did not last long. Zoom which was "award winning " has been cut and a version is now run by the low cost arm Notts and Derby. The Red Arrow Sunday trips to the Peak District also did not last long. Why would anyone apart from a bus spotter want to spend 75 minutes on a bus. With Civic v3 seating, when for £3 plus booking fee you can get a Coach with Air con, usb etc. National Express run what 25 trips per day? And offer multitrips of 10 tickets which are valid for 3 months.

People with Concessionary passes who would travel free on Cityzap but not NatEx/Megabus I suspect is your answer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps they will now put route numbers on the thousands of bus stop flags in West Yorkshire where they are missing and only say "Buses towards".

How long before it's cheaper to do this by having electronic screens showing static as well as dynamic information instead? This is already happening in Edinburgh. I'm fairly surprised TfGM haven't considered it for the main bus stations, at least.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

From what I've seen on Twitter, a large amount of pax today seem to be "bus spotters". Looking at Mr Hornbys record when he was at Trent Barton, Leicester Xprss did not last long. Zoom which was "award winning " has been cut and a version is now run by the low cost arm Notts and Derby. The Red Arrow Sunday trips to the Peak District also did not last long. Why would anyone apart from a bus spotter want to spend 75 minutes on a bus. With Civic v3 seating, when for £3 plus booking fee you can get a Coach with Air con, usb etc. National Express run what 25 trips per day? And offer multitrips of 10 tickets which are valid for 3 months.

I'm not always a fan of Mr Hornby's self promotion but in all honesty, what's the man supposed to do? He's clearly an innovator and an extrovert - the very things that the bus industry is usually criticised for not being! Yes, they'll be the odd failure - never experiment and you'll never fail though that isn't then a justification for every gricer to suggest ever more elaborate and unlikely bus services!! Think of all the Stagecoach failures - Megabus in Europe, Bristol to Gloucester express, Coach USA..... innovation and experimentation will have a casualty rate!

The sell for CityZap is that a) ENCTS will be valid and b) it's turn up and travel rather than the NatEx alternative and c) cost - NatEx are not as cheap as you may think. After all, CityZap mk 1 would (on the surface) seem to be an odd move - adding extra journeys that may abstract traffic from your own product (Coastliner) and against the competition from the train. Not withstanding the view that only 2 or 3 people use it (!) - so unsuccessful that it has stayed and a second service been initiated.

 

[Statto]

I'm not always a fan of Mr Hornby's self promotion but in all honesty, what's the man supposed to do? He's clearly an innovator and an extrovert - the very things that the bus industry is usually criticised for not being! Yes, they'll be the odd failure - never experiment and you'll never fail though that isn't then a justification for every gricer to suggest ever more elaborate and unlikely bus services!! Think of all the Stagecoach failures - Megabus in Europe, Bristol to Gloucester express, Coach USA..... innovation and experimentation will have a casualty rate!

The sell for CityZap is that a) ENCTS will be valid and b) it's turn up and travel rather than the NatEx alternative and c) cost - NatEx are not as cheap as you may think. After all, CityZap mk 1 would (on the surface) seem to be an odd move - adding extra journeys that may abstract traffic from your own product (Coastliner) and against the competition from the train. Not withstanding the view that only 2 or 3 people use it (!) - so unsuccessful that it has stayed and a second service been initiated.

CityZap fares are similar to the NEX fares, apart from ENCTS passes other bonus is Transdev Daytripper/Daytripper Plus tickets, only drawbacks though are M62 which can be a car park in the peaks[even occasionally off peaks] plus lack of an evening service, even if it's a 2 hourly service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The cost question is more on turn up and travel - go this afternoon, the cost is £10.10 on NatEx vs the £6.70 on CityZap

Hey, it may not work but think that's part of their thinking!

 

[185143]

I had a look on the NatEx ticket machine at Chorlton Street yesterday, as I just missed the 10:15 Cityzap. The next NatEx was 11:20 to Leeds and cost a fiver. Don't know if they charge a booking fee at all?

The coach arrived into Leeds at exactly the same time the 11:15 Cityzap did.

 

[96tommy]

After all, CityZap mk 1 would (on the surface) seem to be an odd move - adding extra journeys that may abstract traffic from your own product (Coastliner) and against the competition from the train. Not withstanding the view that only 2 or 3 people use it (!) - so unsuccessful that it has stayed and a second service been initiated.

It's stayed but a lot of services have been cut. That's not really an option with this new one to cut the amount of services they have done with the first Cityzap so more important they get this one right first time

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's stayed but a lot of services have been cut. That's not really an option with this new one to cut the amount of services they have done with the first Cityzap so more important they get this one right first time

Yes - that's the challenge of any new service offering. However, they have trimmed those journeys that weren't viable yet the service is now carrying c.200k passengers a year after 18 months.

Whether they're successful with this one, who knows? Will it have a niche? Despite the research and experience, no one knows and (as Neil in MK), there is always a time lag in starting a new service and getting a clientele.

Stagecoach have tried two express services into Bristol in recent years. The one from Gloucester was initially hourly, then four times a day, before it finally got pulled. The other from Plymouth and Exeter was hourly and has been a success - however, if you'd have travelled on it in the first two weeks of operation (as I did - £1 intro fare), then it carried penny numbers. I was on a southbound run - 5 passengers of which 3 were enthusiasts!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Stagecoach manage with a council car park in Ambleside - no fence, no office, no cash-safe, no maintenance. An arrangement which has existed since the bus station and garage closed, many years ago. Vehicles work to Kendal for maintenance.

Sorry to go off on a tangent but the challenge of outbases is one that is sometimes not fully understood.

Security is a problem and that can extend from simple vandalism to something more serious. First Eastern Counties had a long tradition of outbases and whilst many closed when they pulled back from rural services, they had at least one serious arson attack (not that putting vehicles in a depot is a guarantee). Then there are the problems of fuel theft etc.

The real issues are around staffing and servicing. Have a small outbase and it can be a real b*gger to cover holidays and especially if a driver rings in sick. Then you have the need to get vehicles rotated for service and minor repairs (if a driver has to defect). Of course, if you have a vehicle visiting the parent depot town, that is much easier. However, if (as in this case) no point is reasonably close to a depot, then that causes problems. In this instance, and with a new proposition, it is probably safer to run it from one of the existing depots.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ambleside's facility is terrible for the world-class tourist destination it is. It is a real off-putter to using what really is a very good service, doing the 1990s thing of hiding the buses round the back as if you're embarrassed about them. It needs a proper, impressive bus station, ideally staffed and with toilets and retail, opening in a more prominent location.

The Lake District *really* needs higher public transport use and fewer cars, so bad is the traffic. Stagecoach are doing their bit, but the National Park Authority really isn't.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

From what I've seen on Twitter, a large amount of pax today seem to be "bus spotters". Looking at Mr Hornbys record when he was at Trent Barton, Leicester Xprss did not last long. Zoom which was "award winning " has been cut and a version is now run by the low cost arm Notts and Derby. The Red Arrow Sunday trips to the Peak District also did not last long. Why would anyone apart from a bus spotter want to spend 75 minutes on a bus. With Civic v3 seating, when for £3 plus booking fee you can get a Coach with Air con, usb etc. National Express run what 25 trips per day? And offer multitrips of 10 tickets which are valid for 3 months.

Flexibility?
Can change times of out and return to suit the weather.
Can decide not to go at all, or decide to go on the spur of the moment to suit the weather.