New Transdev Cityzap services registered (and now cancelled)

[Dentonian]

I've heard a few people say this now about the Manchester ones. I don't think a bus across the M62 is everyone's cup of tea when trains are quicker and a lot .ore regular. In regard to the York ones I can only say what I see. A few times I've seen 0-3 on, more times when there's been less than 9/10 on and a few times when they look relatively busy (15+)

One thing that's just occurred to me. As regards the general travelling public (ie. not those approached with freebies at Piccadilly Station - & Leeds Central?) who knows about Cityzap?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Didn't the Leeds to York CityZap replace an existing service? Whereas the Leeds to Manchester service is completely new.

 

[96tommy]

Didn't the Leeds to York CityZap replace an existing service? Whereas the Leeds to Manchester service is completely new.

There used to be 4 Coastliner buses an hour between Leeds and York. This went down to 2 for a couple of years then CityZap came in. I don't quite understand why the Coastliner was dropped. They were always relatively busy and served different areas e.g Colton in Leeds and PoppleWell Care Home in Tadcaster which has now been left without a bus service by Coastliner, however I believe Connexions may serve there with the Pontefract or Harrogate buses. In Tadcaster the 844 avoided the trek around Woodlands. Would love to see it back!

 

[96tommy]

One thing that's just occurred to me. As regards the general travelling public (ie. not those approached with freebies at Piccadilly Station - & Leeds Central?) who knows about Cityzap?

Not sure but I don't think that's why passenger numbers have been low. It's advertised quite well in Leeds Bus Station itself. I think it's more to do with a very irregular service and long journey times

 

[Tetchytyke]

Didn't the Leeds to York CityZap replace an existing service?

Coastliner was always 2 buses an hour.

First attempted to compete with them with their X64, and in response Coastliner went up to 4bph.

First withdrew and Coastliner persisted with 4bph for a while. It briefly went back to 2bph, I think related to the Tadcaster bridge issues, and then CityZap came in to make it 4bph again.

 

[96tommy]

Transdev Blazefield do not tolerate services that lose money - witness the axing of the 4 & 5 Hospital routes in Harrogate and the cutting back to Otley of the 62. They will have set a target for both Cityzap services to achieve, the York one they were pleased with its first year return - to quote Alex Hornby in the Bus & Coach Week issue that featured Transdev Blazefield "it achieved its target for Easter 2017 by November 2016." Observations of a few workings can never tell the full story and those that have a few passengers on them will be passengers who the opposing direction may well have travelled on a fullish working - axe those that carry few and the passengers that those workings carried may just disappear altogether. It may be a service where loadings are random - a working one day may be full, the next day very empty.

Good point about different journeys etc. I'm sure it's probably busier when York Races are on etc... when I try and actively avoid the A64 so rarely see the Zap on these days. When I notice they are busier is when the Coastliner is late

 

[Andyh82]

There used to be 4 Coastliner buses an hour between Leeds and York. This went down to 2 for a couple of years then CityZap came in. I don't quite understand why the Coastliner was dropped. They were always relatively busy and served different areas e.g Colton in Leeds and PoppleWell Care Home in Tadcaster which has now been left without a bus service by Coastliner, however I believe Connexions may serve there with the Pontefract or Harrogate buses. In Tadcaster the 844 avoided the trek around Woodlands. Would love to see it back!

Obvious anti Transdev bias there, you’ve missed out one bit. Coastliner was only 4 buses for a few years, it was 2 buses per hour for decades before that.

And talking about low passenger numbers, you always were saying this in relation to the York Cityzap, now you are changing your story and saying it’s the Manchester Cityzap.

Of course the latter will have low numbers travelling, it’s an entirely new service and it’s only been running a short time.

The York one isn’t going anywhere so I don’t know why you persist on dragging this argument from forum to forum.

 

[96tommy]

Obvious anti Transdev bias there, you’ve missed out one bit. Coastliner was only 4 buses for a few years, it was 2 buses per hour for decades before that.

And talking about low passenger numbers, you always were saying this in relation to the York Cityzap, now you are changing your story and saying it’s the Manchester Cityzap.

Of course the latter will have low numbers travelling, it’s an entirely new service and it’s only been running a short time.

The York one isn’t going anywhere so I don’t know why you persist on dragging this argument from forum to forum.

Anti Transdev bias in the quote you used? The other user asked if the CityZap replaced other journeys. I replied with a fact that it did but not until a year or two later and stating the route the old journey took. I don't want the York one to go anywhere I have nothing against it. As I've said a number of times from observation passenger numbers now seem to be better

 

[Deerfold]

I don't want the York one to go anywhere I have nothing against it. As I've said a number of times from observation passenger numbers now seem to be better

That's not what you've been saying recently.

You can go from Leeds out to Ripon on the ticket, why not York at least? Transdev should be trying to increase passenger numbers on cityzap at the moment since they are low, not further decreasing then.

I just can't work out why on a route with very low passenger numbers (Cityzap) they are making a move that will make this even more lower.

In regard to the York ones I can only say what I see. A few times I've seen 0-3 on, more times when there's been less than 9/10 on and a few times when they look relatively busy (15+)

 

[96tommy]

I know I didn't mention it but for the first 2 quotes they were referring to the Manchester ones. That's my fault.

BTW post #140 I say i have noticed they are getting more busy and I stick to that. CityZap 1 does seem more busy now than say 7/8 months ago so still time yet for CityZap 2 to gain the passenger numbers the original CityZap are now getting

 

[tbtc]

I've heard a few people say this now about the Manchester ones. I don't think a bus across the M62 is everyone's cup of tea when trains are quicker and a lot .ore regular. In regard to the York ones I can only say what I see. A few times I've seen 0-3 on, more times when there's been less than 9/10 on and a few times when they look relatively busy (15+)

We'll, yes, the train is faster, but the same could be said of pretty much every bus route (with broadly parallel rail service) - the train competes on speed and the bus competes on price.

This is a railway service where people on this Forum bemoan the lack of flexible fares under £20.

The bus doesn't have to be "everyone's cup of tea", it just has to find a niche in the market - and the market is potentially big enough for there to be scope for a fast train (TPE), a slow train (cheaper fares on Northern via Hebden Bridge) and a bus/coach service, as well as thousands of motorists.

Just look at Edinburgh - Glasgow - two cities of broadly similar size to Leeds/ Manchester that are roughly the same distance apart, where there's always been a regular coach service (Citylink, Megabus, M8Motorvator, Stagecoach and various others over the years) as well as a fairly frequent train service (that is much faster than the coaches).

I've not been on a CityZap, I don't claim to have any knowledge of their operation/ targets/ profitability - I just think that you're going out of your way to find things to complain about (e.g. reporting every broken down vehicle on the service).

 

[Bantamzen]

Not sure but I don't think that's why passenger numbers have been low. It's advertised quite well in Leeds Bus Station itself. I think it's more to do with a very irregular service and long journey times

We'll, yes, the train is faster, but the same could be said of pretty much every bus route (with broadly parallel rail service) - the train competes on speed and the bus competes on price.

This is a railway service where people on this Forum bemoan the lack of flexible fares under £20.

The bus doesn't have to be "everyone's cup of tea", it just has to find a niche in the market - and the market is potentially big enough for there to be scope for a fast train (TPE), a slow train (cheaper fares on Northern via Hebden Bridge) and a bus/coach service, as well as thousands of motorists.

Just look at Edinburgh - Glasgow - two cities of broadly similar size to Leeds/ Manchester that are roughly the same distance apart, where there's always been a regular coach service (Citylink, Megabus, M8Motorvator, Stagecoach and various others over the years) as well as a fairly frequent train service (that is much faster than the coaches).

I've not been on a CityZap, I don't claim to have any knowledge of their operation/ targets/ profitability - I just think that you're going out of your way to find things to complain about (e.g. reporting every broken down vehicle on the service).

The Manchester Zap might have carved out a better niche for itself had it offered at least one or two more stops rather than dumping punters on the edge of Huddersfield. In the past plenty of similar services managed to serve reasonably long end-to-end services with intermediate stops (I'm thinking of services like the X33 Sheffield-Bradford), so perhaps if it ran fast to say Halifax, Brighouse or Elland then onto Manchester it might pick up far more patronage? But as it stands it departs Leeds at the far end of the city centre at the bus station, doesn't pick up again until the outskirts of Huddersfield then onto Manchester. Even another stop in the centre of Leeds might push it a bit more, say at the station or somewhere close to City Square.

And then of course you have the M62, which is a regular choke point across the Pennines even in good weather, let alone the poor conditions its currently having. Looking at the timetable it can take anything from 1h 15m (which isn't bad) to 1h 40m in the peaks for what is a 43 mile journey, most of which is motorway. Not ideal for attracting the customers, and even less so when TPE get the new stock and greatly improve capacity. And all this is before you factor in the jams on the M62 as well as at each end. It would be interesting to see if the padding TransDev have included on some routes is enough or if journey times are even longer.

 

[Andyh82]

All that is true, but National Express run Leeds to Manchester with the same issues and they aren’t about to throw in the towel.

 

[Stan Drews]

A number of comments have suggested that when the York-Leeds Cityzap service started in March 2016, that it took the number of Transdev bph between the cities from 2 to 4. However this is incorrect. Prior to then, the Coastliner service was actually running every 20 mins between Malton and Leeds, so York - Leeds went from 3 to 4 bph, but with 2 of them now being quicker direct journeys. The slower Coastliner route reduced from 3 to 2 bph between Leeds and Malton, but benefited from more regular journeys on the legs beyond Malton towards the coast. The overall PVR remained the same, so all they effectively did was make better use of them for the vast majority of users.

 

[anti-pacer]

I've not used this service, but I'm surprised it is using Chorlton Street and not Shudehill.

Why not offer something different and go close to the shops (and a Metrolink stop next door), or was it to integrate with other Transdev services such as the Red Express and Witchway?

 

[johntea]

Another contactless failure this evening, they really need to get a move on with the new technology, thankfully the drivers have kindly let me ride for free in all instances (I genuinely have no other methods of payment at the moment as I’ve had to report my debit card lost so on my credit card which is very expensive to withdraw cash!)

I did suggest they could maybe add some popular fares on the app but it fell on deaf ears

 

[96tommy]

Another contactless failure this evening, they really need to get a move on with the new technology, thankfully the drivers have kindly let me ride for free in all instances (I genuinely have no other methods of payment at the moment as I’ve had to report my debit card lost so on my credit card which is very expensive to withdraw cash!)

I did suggest they could maybe add some popular fares on the app but it fell on deaf ears

When the contactless arrives on the Coastliner etc... is it going to be the same technology used as on the 36. I've seen a few reports of it not working consistently now so I assume they must be making a fix priority as it must be losing them a fair bit of money.

 

[Bungle965]

When the contactless arrives on the Coastliner etc... is it going to be the same technology used as on the 36. I've seen a few reports of it not working consistently now so I assume they must be making a fix priority as it must be losing them a fair bit of money.

No I believe that it will be new ticket machines, at a guess ticketer. Which is what First and a growing number of operators are using.
Sam

 

[Welshman]

All that is true, but National Express run Leeds to Manchester with the same issues and they aren’t about to throw in the towel.

Yes, but remember most of the NE "Shuttle" services between Leeds and Manchester extend to/originate at Liverpool and their other services along the M62 also serve Bradford, Oldham, Manchester Airport and Chester [including the zoo] - my point being NE also tap into other markets.

Concerning the Cityzap, I can't help feeling it might be carrying better loads, if it served somewhere like Halifax: - fast Leeds to Halifax, then fast to Manchester. I realise you'd be looking at a journey time of some 1hr 45mins end to end, but the service is never going to compete with rail even staying on the M62 throughout. By serving Halifax, it would also offer a faster bus service from/to Leeds [the 508 being so slow via Farsley], and restore the service to Manchester [lost since the demise of the old X12].

 

[Statto]

Yes, but remember most of the NE "Shuttle" services between Leeds and Manchester extend to/originate at Liverpool and their other services along the M62 also serve Bradford, Oldham, Manchester Airport and Chester [including the zoo] - my point being NE also tap into other markets.

NEX Liverpool-Leeds 060 shuttle service i used to use regully, the 060 was a merger in the mid 90s between the old 351 Liverpool-Manchester & 352 Manchester-Leeds, annoyingly nowadays first through coach now gets into Leeds 10.30am

 

[pemma]

I've not used this service, but I'm surprised it is using Chorlton Street and not Shudehill.

Why not offer something different and go close to the shops (and a Metrolink stop next door), or was it to integrate with other Transdev services such as the Red Express and Witchway?

Chorlton Street is the first/last stop on other Transdev services. Probably it's easier to timetable if they use a stop no other operator uses, rather than a busy interchange like Shudehill.

 

[SCH117X]

Chorlton Street is the first/last stop on other Transdev services. Probably it's easier to timetable if they use a stop no other operator uses, rather than a busy interchange like Shudehill.

and they normally have a staff member attending their. Obviously though no reason for it not pick up elsewhere, although rather than closer to Piccadilly the western parts of Manchester City Centre could be better possibility as it would save people the trek to Piccadilly and hence the longer journey time would be offset.

 

[96tommy]

Is Chorlton St. the only stop it serves in the city centre?

 

[Bungle965]

Is Chorlton St. the only stop it serves in the city centre?

No it also serves Piccadilly Gardens.
Sam

 

[ChathillMan]

I used the service today as I actually needed to travel between Leeds and Manchester anyway and i wasn't time sensitive.

Lost 15 mins due to the weather on the M62 - thank god the heating works!

Sadly I wasn't left thinking "wow" though. It just felt like any other Express bus you see up and down the country. I say "sadly" as I always try and use the bus over the train where I can - but I can't see it lasting long in its present form based on the numbers that were on board, or waiting at the stop for the return trip.

 

[Ianno87]

Chorlton Street is the first/last stop on other Transdev services. Probably it's easier to timetable if they use a stop no other operator uses, rather than a busy interchange like Shudehill.

Is there a cost associated with accessing Shudehill that is avoided using a "normal" stop?

 

[Dentonian]

Is there a cost associated with accessing Shudehill that is avoided using a "normal" stop?

Yes. There is a facility charge for all buses (and coaches) using TFGM bus stations.

Yes, but remember most of the NE "Shuttle" services between Leeds and Manchester extend to/originate at Liverpool and their other services along the M62 also serve Bradford, Oldham, Manchester Airport and Chester [including the zoo] - my point being NE also tap into other markets.

Concerning the Cityzap, I can't help feeling it might be carrying better loads, if it served somewhere like Halifax: - fast Leeds to Halifax, then fast to Manchester. I realise you'd be looking at a journey time of some 1hr 45mins end to end, but the service is never going to compete with rail even staying on the M62 throughout. By serving Halifax, it would also offer a faster bus service from/to Leeds [the 508 being so slow via Farsley], and restore the service to Manchester [lost since the demise of the old X12].

TBF, the Ainley Top stop affords connections to First WY's frequent 503 service between Halifax and Huddersfield, Not ideal, but it is an alternative to trekking across to Victoria and spending over the odds (money and time wise) on a Northern Shed.

 

[Welshman]

Yes. There is a facility charge for all buses (and coaches) using TFGM bus stations.


TBF, the Ainley Top stop affords connections to First WY's frequent 503 service between Halifax and Huddersfield, Not ideal, but it is an alternative to trekking across to Victoria and spending over the odds (money and time wise) on a Northern Shed.

But its not a pleasant walk, though between the stops, and not a comfortable place to wait for the Cityzap for an hour or so if you just happen to miss one!
Is the walk across Manchester to Victoria to board a Northern Train a deterrent? There's always the tram, and now an hourly service from Oxford Rd.

 

[Dentonian]

But its not a pleasant walk, though between the stops, and not a comfortable place to wait for the Cityzap for an hour or so if you just happen to miss one!
Is the walk across Manchester to Victoria to board a Northern Train a deterrent? There's always the tram, and now an hourly service from Oxford Rd.

It obviously depends on personal circumstance; I live to the east of Manchester and have aneamia so yes the walk is a bit of a deterrent - the walk back, moreso. More generally, unless you arrive by train, you have to pay extra for the tram and my experience of connecting from train to tram in Piccadilly is that its very time consuming. And Sprinters are always a deterrent, even if only on one for 10-15 minutes, so all the way through north Manchester, Rochdale etc. Yes, pretty much a big turn off.
The problem with diverting Cityzap is that it would be such a small market, and defeat the object of a "direct" service. Having said that, I still don't understand why they stop on Chadderton, Broadway rather than on Oldham Road (for access to/from Failsworth, Newton Heath and even Oldham) or nearer Chadderton itself (for access to/from Oldham and Middleton). The only thing I ca think of is that the max distance between stops for a registered "local bus service" has increased from 15 to 20 miles. According to the AA; Chadderton, Broadway to Ainley Top is 19.54 miles.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The Manchester Zap might have carved out a better niche for itself had it offered at least one or two more stops rather than dumping punters on the edge of Huddersfield. In the past plenty of similar services managed to serve reasonably long end-to-end services with intermediate stops (I'm thinking of services like the X33 Sheffield-Bradford), so perhaps if it ran fast to say Halifax, Brighouse or Elland then onto Manchester it might pick up far more patronage? But as it stands it departs Leeds at the far end of the city centre at the bus station, doesn't pick up again until the outskirts of Huddersfield then onto Manchester. Even another stop in the centre of Leeds might push it a bit more, say at the station or somewhere close to City Square.

Personally I think that CityZap2 should come off at 23, whittle through Ainley Top village pick up and set down there then down the A643 into Brighouse and pick up / set down on Huddersfield Road / Sainsbury's before rejoining the M62 at junction 25. As there's buses from Huddersfield, Halifax, Cleckheaton and Elland that go to Brighouse which people could use and interchange in Brighouse had it been the pickup / set down point than Ainley Top which is miles from anywhere.