'New turnback facilities at Clapham (sic) and at Balham'

Status
Not open for further replies.

Railcar

Member
Joined
27 Nov 2017
Messages
106
In an email that arrived today (Feb 9th) from Southern Railway headed 'London Victoria track and signal upgrades', this was one of the Phase 3 bullet points:

'New turnback facilities at Clapham and at Balham, will help signallers keep more trains moving during planned engineering work and, when disruption on the railway.'

(Having used 'Clapham Junction' once at the beginning of the piece, from then on it is simply referred to as 'Clapham')

By 'new' do they actually mean 'replacement' or do they mean 'additional'? If these 'new turnback facilities' really are additional, where will they be situated?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
2,844
There is a lot now out there on these - see here

The frequency uplift is a little vague - frankly I'm not sure where extra trains from Victoria to Clapham Junction would go on to. Every route is pretty capacity constrained. One thing would be to take the WLL paths and send to East/South Croydon - with WLL all terminating at Clapham Junction - in some hours those are pathed 2tph. The Norwood Junction P7 would have been good for this. There was mention of Wallington in a document also.

Line speeds might save a minute here and there, but I can't imagine that will be passed on to the timetable. They rarely are!
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
20,300
In an email that arrived today (Feb 9th) from Southern Railway headed 'London Victoria track and signal upgrades', this was one of the Phase 3 bullet points:

'New turnback facilities at Clapham and at Balham, will help signallers keep more trains moving during planned engineering work and, when disruption on the railway.'

(Having used 'Clapham Junction' once at the beginning of the piece, from then on it is simply referred to as 'Clapham')

By 'new' do they actually mean 'replacement' or do they mean 'additional'? If these 'new turnback facilities' really are additional, where will they be situated?

AIUI, the new turnbacks are additional signalled routes that will enable services to turnback from the platforms in passenger service. I can’t remember the detail, but there maybe some changes to the pointwork in the area - Falcon Jn is being renewed soon, and I think at least one of the Balhams is too.

The capacity uplift is to shorten the technical headway (and thus planning headway) so that when (if) Croydon / Windmill Bridge is done, the extra trains that enables can get trough to Victoria.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
26,425
I think, (from memory), the 2015 Sussex route study suggested new facing crossovers at the country end of Clapham Junction, to allow up trains to run into the down platforms. So presumably that would cover turning back?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
20,300
I think, (from memory), the 2015 Sussex route study suggested new facing crossovers at the country end of Clapham Junction, to allow up trains to run into the down platforms. So presumably that would cover turning back?

It would... the alignment is horrible at the immediate country end of the station on the slows - as is the drainage - so it could be quite a job.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
26,425
It would... the alignment is horrible at the immediate country end of the station on the slows - as is the drainage - so it could be quite a job.
Again, (without looking at the route study), wasn’t there an ambitious suggestion to extend the down West London line through a short tunnel? I’d look it up if I was near my PC...
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
20,300
Again, (without looking at the route study), wasn’t there an ambitious suggestion to extend the down West London line through a short tunnel? I’d look it up if I was near my PC...

Well that’s certainly not happening!
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
6,913
The capacity uplift is to shorten the technical headway (and thus planning headway) so that when (if) Croydon / Windmill Bridge is done, the extra trains that enables can get trough to Victoria.

Low confidence on Windmill Bridge / Croydon then?
 

Railcar

Member
Joined
27 Nov 2017
Messages
106
Southern's email states that
'There will be no trains running between East Croydon and London Victoria or between Streatham Hill and London Victoria on the following weekends:'
That could be seen as implying that trains from WEST Croydon will still be running into Victoria, as will trains from Sutton via Mitcham Junction. How could they if the points and signals are being replaced at Balham and Clapham Junction?
Just a badly-worded communication from Southern?
 
Joined
18 Aug 2019
Messages
714
Location
London
Southern's email states that
'There will be no trains running between East Croydon and London Victoria or between Streatham Hill and London Victoria on the following weekends:'
That could be seen as implying that trains from WEST Croydon will still be running into Victoria, as will trains from Sutton via Mitcham Junction. How could they if the points and signals are being replaced at Balham and Clapham Junction?
Just a badly-worded communication from Southern?
I think what the email is saying is that the line is blocked between East Croydon/Streatham Hill and London Victoria, so as a result southern services from Sutton and West Croydon cannot run to Victoria as the West Croydons can only go as far as Streatham Hill and services from Sutton would run via Streatham and into London Bridge if they were to run.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
2,061
Location
Surrey
I think, (from memory), the 2015 Sussex route study suggested new facing crossovers at the country end of Clapham Junction, to allow up trains to run into the down platforms. So presumably that would cover turning back?
You can use 16 & 17 now with a shunt back on the London side ought to be good for six trains an hour but not sure its ever used as presumable most crews don't sign it so easier to just terminate everything at E.Croydon
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
12,268
Location
Epsom
services from Sutton would run via Streatham and into London Bridge if they were to run.
They are; the xx.23 and xx.53 from Epsom, which are normally the semi-fast Victoria services ( originating at Dorking and Horsham ) will be running fast from Mitcham Eastfields to London Bridge ( and vice-versa on the down services ).

That they don't have a stop in place at Streatham or Tulse Hill to connect for the Epsom Downs services which call at stations below Streatham Common suggests they are booked to run as 10 car formations, which don't fit the platforms.
 

louis97

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2008
Messages
1,503
Location
Derby
They are; the xx.23 and xx.53 from Epsom, which are normally the semi-fast Victoria services ( originating at Dorking and Horsham ) will be running fast from Mitcham Eastfields to London Bridge ( and vice-versa on the down services ).

That they don't have a stop in place at Streatham or Tulse Hill to connect for the Epsom Downs services which call at stations below Streatham Common suggests they are booked to run as 10 car formations, which don't fit the platforms.
Its fairly normal that the Dorking/Horsham services run fast from Mitcham Eastfields when diverted to London Bridge, the TL services provide onward connections.

Whilst 10 car formations do present issues with overhanging junctions, there isn't any other reason 10 car (377) formations cannot stop. 10 car trains regularly stop on Sundays when the Sydenham corridor is closed for engineering works, the London Bridge to East Croydon via Tulse Hill services are extended to Caterham/Tattenham and run with 10 car 377s.
 

TRXsouth

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2020
Messages
8
Location
Surrey
There is a lot now out there on these - see here

The frequency uplift is a little vague - frankly I'm not sure where extra trains from Victoria to Clapham Junction would go on to. Every route is pretty capacity constrained. One thing would be to take the WLL paths and send to East/South Croydon - with WLL all terminating at Clapham Junction - in some hours those are pathed 2tph. The Norwood Junction P7 would have been good for this. There was mention of Wallington in a document also.

Line speeds might save a minute here and there, but I can't imagine that will be passed on to the timetable. They rarely are!
Just following up turnbacks and Cle’s “mention of Wallington in a document.” I believe that this may relate to the 2019 TFL document for their case (proposal or demand?) for ‘Metroisation in south and south east London.’ This included providing ”new turnback facilities/reversing platforms at Cheam, Wallington and Belmont” for more frequent south central services into Victoria and London Bridge. However, all such plans now seem unlikely in the post-Covid working and commuting environments.
 

Sad Sprinter

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2017
Messages
994
Location
Way on down South London town
Very interesting-although why not make use of the Streatham Hill turnback siding for turning trains around at Balham? I may have missed something, but its the Balham turnback for a more frequent Victoria-Balham service?
 

zwk500

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
2,511
Location
Milton Keynes
Very interesting-although why not make use of the Streatham Hill turnback siding for turning trains around at Balham? I may have missed something, but its the Balham turnback for a more frequent Victoria-Balham service?
The new turnback facility at Balham is to allow Southbound departures from the Northbound Slow platform. It's a rather dramatic way of describing replacing a shunt signal with a main aspect signal.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
2,844
Just following up turnbacks and Cle’s “mention of Wallington in a document.” I believe that this may relate to the 2019 TFL document for their case (proposal or demand?) for ‘Metroisation in south and south east London.’ This included providing ”new turnback facilities/reversing platforms at Cheam, Wallington and Belmont” for more frequent south central services into Victoria and London Bridge. However, all such plans now seem unlikely in the post-Covid working and commuting environments.
Yes maybe this was it.

I don't really see what Cheam reversing would be - surely reinstating the through lines is the move here? Although the layovers for stopping trains would be a pain - unless that is how services would in fact terminate there? And await fast inner services to pass?

It's lightly used, so maybe not worth it - but might doubling the entirety of the Epsom Downs line be better for reliability and maybe allow 4tph. Not that it justifies it, but more to have somewhere to send additional trains on the inner Southern network.

In any case, it sounds as if this is largely to enable Balham terminators (for tube connections) from the South in times of Victoria and CJ works.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top